The Impact of On-Demand Manufacturing and AI with Jim Lawton, Zebra Technologies, and J. “Kirby” Best, BMC Fashion

(Intro Narrator at 00:00:00) Today, we're talking to Jim from Zebra and Kirby from BMC Fashion about the evolution of on-demand manufacturing. You're listening to Joel Beasley, Modern CTO.

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:15) So tell me about this. Is BMC—is the fashion part a breakoff of the parent company or a division? How does that work?

(Kirby at 00:00:21) So there's two companies in our group. One is a software company that helps designers and brands set up their product, and so it's machine-readable. It's organized, structured data, and that feeds the manufacturing firm, BMC, which manufactures the dresses and gowns and things like that.

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:42) Nice. And how big is BMC?

(Kirby at 00:00:44) BMC, I think we're 70-plus right now. So it's a relatively new startup, but we've just signed a major contract. So we think we'll be building—at least the goal is to build five of these plants in the United States and five around the world. So that's the goal.

(Joel Beasley at 00:01:05) Are you one of the founders?

(Kirby at 00:01:06) I am the founder.

(Joel Beasley at 00:01:07) Yeah. Okay. Have you been in the fashion industry for a while now?

(Kirby at 00:01:10) Yes, for about ten years, with a previous stint of five years about thirty years ago. So, yeah, there's a bit of a story to that.

(Joel Beasley at 00:01:21) Well, yeah. Tell me about it.

(Kirby at 00:01:22) Well, I'll just tell you the quick story. Jim, you tell me when to shut up. You'll laugh at this. So I was very fortunate. I got to represent Canada in a number of sports, and I drove the four-man bobsled for five years, which a lot of people laugh at, but I also did cross-country skiing and shooting, something called biathlon.

(Kirby at 00:01:47) And why that's important is, 1977 World Championships, Adidas had sponsored us with these brand-new suits, and this is what got me interested in clothing. I wouldn't even have looked at it before. But these suits were back-zippered. So we're carrying a 12-pound rifle on a zipper on your backbone. And so within a mile, it's a bloody pulp mess.

(Kirby at 00:02:13) And that wasn't the worst part. The suits rode up and choked us. And so what happened was we went back to Adidas and we said, you know, what's going on? Who tested these? And nobody had tested them.

(Kirby at 00:02:28) So we got into the idea of—we hired 52 athletes around the world, and the big brands would give us something to test. We would test it with the appropriate athlete, and then come back. And we had nothing to do with the design of it. We were strictly looking at the functionality. Were the armholes right? Was the zipper in the right place? Putting a back-zippered suit on somebody that's, you know, going full-out cross-country skiing wasn't really a smart way to look at things. So we'd write a report, and sometimes they'd throw the report out, and sometimes they'd use it. But that's what we would do. And that's actually what got me really interested in clothing. There are other stories, but that's the first one.

(Joel Beasley at 00:03:20) And then what prompted the idea for BMC?

(Kirby at 00:03:24) So two things. Well, there's a number of things. But I'm kind of the guy behind the on-demand book world. And so we took that concept, and we made it huge. It's now by far the largest book manufacturing company in the world, by probably a factor of three or four. It produces about 65% of the books in the United States on demand.

(Kirby at 00:03:47) And so that got me into the on-demand world. And then I left it, and I was starting to look at other industries that needed it. And I had seen this video, this documentary called The True Cost that had a big influence on me. And then I saw something that influenced me even more, and it was a documentary on where ships go to die. And all these container ships that take products back and forth from Asia to the United States and stuff—they're all beached, and they're just left to rot. And they saw them apart and repurpose it, but kids get killed every day, and everything just oozes out into the ocean and stuff.

(Kirby at 00:04:34) And that was the catalyst for me to say, okay, I gotta do this again. Let's do it in an industry—and the fashion industry is known as one of the worst polluters in the world. And so we said we can solve that issue. So we did.

(Joel Beasley at 00:04:49) That makes sense. I mean, clothes take up a lot of space. I'm actually today—we are finishing our closet in our bedroom. So we've got the last bit of trim we're putting on today, and so we have all the clothes in our main room. And I'm like, man, clothes take up a lot of space. You can do the vacuum bag and everything, but there's still a lot. So if you're shipping those from other countries all over the globe, that's a huge amount of shipping. So that's how you're looking at it. You're like, all right, if I can reduce some of this, that's a net positive.

(Kirby at 00:05:18) It was a net positive. I—you know, my love is designing factories and designing efficiencies and really designing computers to drive the efficiencies into the manufacturing process.

(Joel Beasley at 00:05:33) Now that company you built, was that CreateSpace, or did it get sold to KDP?

(Kirby at 00:05:38) Oh, good for you. No. CreateSpace is another one. No, Lightning Source. It's always been part of Ingram Industries. And Ingram—one of the largest privately held companies in the world.

(Joel Beasley at 00:05:51) So they do—do they do a lot of education books, or do they do all sorts of stuff?

(Kirby at 00:05:55) They do, but they're not publishers. They're distributors or manufacturers. So, yeah. But, you know, a lot of people know Ingram Micro. They're the largest distributor of computer parts around the world.

(Joel Beasley at 00:06:10) Yeah. I looked into books a little bit. I have written and published three books, and I'm working on my first fiction book now, which will be out in September. But so I've had a little—we were doing those children's books. We did two children's books for a charity, and we were figuring out, like, the machines that print the board books are only in very specific places. And so from my research five years ago, there were none in the US. So if you wanted a board book, you had to go to China. And so then I had to learn how to do import and export and, you know, have shipping and all of that. So I got a little—a very little tidbit on one small charitable project that I did experience, but enough to know it's a fascinating industry, how it all works.

(Kirby at 00:06:54) It's tough. It's tough. And you'd laugh at this. I often say the similarities between the fashion industry and the book industry are uncanny. And if you start to look at it, where you have the publisher and then you've got the brand, and then you've got the author and you've got the designer, and you've got the editor and the technical designer. So there's an equal and opposite for every position, and the waste was the same. The distribution handling was the same. It's amazing how it's so parallel. And the funny thing for me is, of course, if you ask any book person about the fashion industry, they go, that's simple. Anybody can, you know, sew a dress. And you ask somebody about the book industry in fashion, they go, anybody can print a book. It's easy. So they have no appreciation for the difficulties each other face. But they're enormous for both industries.

(Joel Beasley at 00:07:54) Well, let's solve this right now here today. I would put money on the dresses being more difficult or the clothes, just because of the amount of stitching and styles there are. Are those more difficult?

(Kirby at 00:08:05) I would be very successful in arguing either side of this case.

(Joel Beasley at 00:08:11) Okay. All right.

(Kirby at 00:08:12) Well, I would challenge you to go to a book factory to see the complexities of putting a book together. It's not easy. It's maybe not as many steps, but if you take a normal what we would call a standard operating product, which is a seven-panel shift dress—there are more operations in a book putting a book together than there would be in putting a shift dress. And a shift dress is what you would see a weather woman or a Katie Couric or, you know, the hostesses of the different Today Show and stuff like that.

(Joel Beasley at 00:08:47) So let's tie this back to your work with Jim and Zebra. So I'm just gonna go ahead and say you're the godfather of direct printing. You don't have to agree with it. I'm just gonna say that you are. And you chose Zebra to partner with on this project. You could have chosen anybody. Why Zebra?

(Kirby at 00:09:04) Zebra was an interesting one. They—and Jim luckily can't kick me under the table here—there are a lot of things that they were doing that just made sense. And being American was very important to us. Having the ability to talk to them is very important. And I think they were going in a direction that we wanted to go. We'd love to take them in a slightly different direction, but we love what they've done. And people always ask me, did I buy the robots to reduce labor? And, actually, it's got nothing to do with it. I bought the robots because they can perform more functions more quickly than any human could ever consider doing.

(Kirby at 00:09:54) So our bots communicate with our AWS system, and, you know, they're communicating many times a second during all their movements and going to the right place at the right time. So it's pretty exciting where it's going.

(Joel Beasley at 00:10:11) I'm definitely on the side of pro-moving forward with technology, right, given the podcast and my whole entire life's work. But there are some interesting times when they're not. For example, when we had that pandemic—I don't know if Jim talked about this—but they had the ports in the United States were really backed up. Right? And that was because the organizations that got together to keep the dock workers' jobs actually prevented the automation port technology from coming in, which created this huge backlog in the pandemic. Meanwhile, countries are outperforming us 10 to 1 with 90% automated docking and, you know, unloading and all of that. And so that was a good example of, you know, something that I personally disagree with. I think that if we do it, it shouldn't be a black or white yes or no. Like, we're gonna let the technology in or not. I think that if we see a technology emerging, we might want to have a plan for transition. Right? But not one that prevents us, regardless of what country you're from or operating in. As a country strategy, I'd say let's not prevent us from falling behind. Let's just create a plan and make a transition. Because at the end of the day, I stop being surprised at industries coming and going and jobs coming and going and all of that, because everyone always seems so surprised, yet it's the one constant since the beginning of time.

(Kirby at 00:11:33) Right. Right. Joel, I can't agree with you more—right up until we get to AI. Then AI is, I'm loving it, but, boy, I'm sure concerned about it. We're definitely gonna use it in our whole system and our platform. We are now skirting with some very interesting dilemmas. So, yep, you opened a rabbit hole there on that one.

(Joel Beasley at 00:12:01) Yeah. Jim, what are your thoughts? Are we safe from the AI? Are they gonna make all of our clothes and tell us what to do?

(Jim at 00:12:08) That's a long question. We could talk just about that for the next hour. Yeah. I think Kirby's right. I mean, the power of these technologies to do things has really been incredible. I know—and my background—I spent ten years in manufacturing and just sort of dealt day by day with all of the challenges. And I was attracted to manufacturing because it's so hard. I mean, the constraints that you deal with every single day—I spent a little bit of time as a design engineer. The time horizon—I've got a long time, relatively speaking, to think about how do I solve something. When you're on the manufacturing floor, you gotta—you need to solve it now. And that was just really engaging to me. And honestly, I got sort of used to the clock cycle of it moving really rapidly.

(Jim at 00:12:47) But the other thing that I experienced was there's gotta be a better way. And so how—and what kinds of technology could we start to create and leverage that would allow us to do things in profoundly different ways that creates value for our customers, creates value for our shareholders? In the case of what, you know, Kirby's been describing, create value for the planet. I mean, the fact that—I mean, people think a lot about it in the context of automation. There isn't enough labor, and I want to be more accurate, and I want to be more productive, but I also want a healthier planet. And so when you're able to use software and robots that—and new business models that those things enable—to change the way that you can manufacture. In this case, I love, you know, Kirby's analogy of, you know, in the old days, you made a book and then you bought the book, and then you made a dress and then you bought the dress. Now you buy the dress and then you make it. You buy the book and then you make it. And, you know, think of what that's doing for the environment. So these kinds of technologies, we have to embrace. We have to figure out how to use them to drive that kind of value.

(Jim at 00:14:16) But to Kirby's point, we have to figure out how to use them responsibly. One of my experiences with technology is that as a new technology comes online, all of these ideas about what it could do start to pop into your head. And over time, what we see is, in a lot of cases, the things that turn out to be most impactful were not necessarily the first things in your head. Right? So it takes time for us to all get an appreciation for what that looks like, and some of them are gonna be incredibly positive, incredibly powerful. I share Kirby's concern. AI, if we're not careful, you know, could be incredibly powerful, incredibly negative. And so I think as a global community, we have a responsibility to figure out how we navigate what may end up being some of the trickiest waters we've ever needed to get into, you know, from a human race perspective.

(Jim at 00:15:03) But I think, you know, when you think about—I mean, at the turn of the eighteenth to the nineteenth century in the 1900s, most people in the United States were spending their time growing food, harvesting food, producing food. Now we've developed technology that means that fewer people in our country on a day-to-day basis have to spend time doing that. You know, you look in the 1960s and '70s, you had a whole bunch of bank tellers. You had a whole bunch of librarians. Now we have technology that has created new industries. It's always easier to see the jobs that are going away as opposed to the ones that are getting created, but there are new opportunities that get created as a result of technology.

(Jim at 00:15:37) I do think we have to be really careful, you know, with AI. I think it's gonna be humans coming together to figure out how we do what the right thing is for humans. Regulation could play a role. I get a little nervous with regulation being sort of the exclusive. Big companies could play a role. I get a little nervous with big companies sort of—like, I think it's gonna be all of us. Like, it's gonna be a bunch of us together to sort of collectively figure out, how do we navigate this? So I think it's important. I don't think, you know, the proverbial genie can go back into the bottle. I think we need to figure out, how do we make—how do we use the technology that's becoming available, you know, for good?

(Joel Beasley at 00:16:42) You're exactly right. A couple of things give me peace. The first thing is, most of the people I get to interact with and talk to that are building technology, they think about these things. Right? And, of course, we want to push forward and have progress.

(Joel Beasley at 00:16:55) So I just don't—it's not they're not absentminded. A lot of people want to do good and they're trying to make things better. And so it is definitely on their mind, but I'm long-term optimistic. I think one of the short-term issues that we're going to face, because it's like seatbelts, right?

(Joel Beasley at 00:17:10) A bunch of people have to start dying first, then the regulation always happens in arrears. It doesn't ever happen proactively. Right? It always happens when there's a bunch of stuff and people are going crazy and upset about it. And then something happens and there's actual damage.

(Joel Beasley at 00:17:25) Safety labels—you look back in the sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties—all of those things are driven by a large amount of pain. Right? And then they go get the government and the government comes in and regulates the slightly more mature industry.

(Jim at 00:17:38) It's a little tricky. I think there is a role for regulation. I think we need to figure out what an effective role for regulation is going to look like. You know, I do worry a little bit that if we depend on it too much—like, if you're a good guy and I'm a bad guy, and you've decided you're not going to use the tech or you're going to limit it in certain ways—I'm not beholden to that regulation. I'm a bad guy.

(Jim at 00:18:02) Right? So we have to be careful that the bad guys don't have the upper hand because of the way in which regulation is being used. On the other hand, if there is some role, we just need to figure out what it is, but I don't think this is going to get solved with one lever. It's going to get solved with multiple levers, you know, with smart people coming together. And we have to be looking at a number of things at the same time.

(Jim at 00:18:25) I mean, it might be far too easy and probably not wise for this conversation to sort of make too many parallels to, you know, the gun industry, for example. But there are those that will say, well, if you didn't have guns, people wouldn't die. There are also people that say, you know, if you had and were addressing mental health issues, you wouldn't have people using guns in irresponsible ways. And so to some degree, there's truth in both of those. It may not be regulating guns or getting people more mental health support.

(Jim at 00:18:53) It may be regulating guns and getting mental health support. But I think it's going to be a collection of levers that we're going to have to pull to really manage what will be very powerful and value-creating and what has the potential to do harm.

(Kirby at 00:19:09) Well, I had no idea we were going to get into some of the most sensitive topics in the world today. So—

(Joel Beasley at 00:19:16) Oh, yeah.

(Kirby at 00:19:16) This is great. But, Jim, I couldn't agree with you more on everything you've said. It's not going to be one. It's going to be multiple. It's dangerous.

(Kirby at 00:19:27) We just have to learn some of the lessons from previous experiences.

(Jim at 00:19:31) And as a technology provider, Joel, I'm incredibly grateful for the opportunity to have our team work with Kirby and his team because the most interesting and powerful things are going to get created by smart people pushing the envelope. And so when people are trying—the creative tension, and I mean that in the most positive way—that comes about between a gap that you discover or come upon, we have to be able to do this differently. It creates sort of the creativity and the generativeness to say, well, let's go figure it out. And so, as Kirby mentioned earlier, you know, he's given us a lot of feedback and input.

(Jim at 00:20:19) And I would say we have—in some of the market that we play, we're not number one. And so we have some humbleness to us, which is we are going to get better when our customers give us feedback and work with us and help us understand the kind of things that we can do to enable new business models, new capabilities, new technology. And so I'm incredibly grateful for the opportunity because this is where I think—this is what I find fun at a personal level, and this is where I think we create value for the world.

(Joel Beasley at 00:20:49) Yeah. And then how do you work together?

(Jim at 00:20:51) So you're essentially creating apparel or a piece of clothing that somebody really, really wants and they really, really want a specific way. The model, the manufacturing model that Kirby has created allows that to be done in not only an efficient way, but as you start to look at doing it at scale, it's something that you couldn't really do without having some of these kinds of technology. And so information, like, if I put in an order—like, I don't want this blue shirt. I want a different one. And I want short sleeves that are, you know, long enough that it doesn't look like a muscle shirt, but short enough that it looks like I might actually have a muscle.

(Jim at 00:21:29) I want the logo here and not over there. Right? So I can have that. And how many times have you ordered something and you get it and you try it on and you're like, it looks good on the model. Like, what's going on?

(Jim at 00:21:42) It doesn't look good on me. But if I had the ability to say, well, I want it like this, you know, that's a shirt that I'm going to be excited. I mean, I have some shirts that I have loved and worn for, you know, twenty-five years. So those are the things that, you know, Kirby and his team have the ability to create, and we're supporting that mission with technology that allows that to happen on the back end. And so the robots are bringing totes of materials to specific stations within the manufacturing plant.

(Jim at 00:22:16) I mean, Kirby can do a far better job sort of describing how this works, and then figuring out sort of what goes where, when and making all of those decisions on a real-time basis is what allows—is one of the things that allows—that operation to work that way. And so we have a combination of Zebra scanners and Zebra robots that are enabling that transportation element of the manufacturer.

(Joel Beasley at 00:22:41) How long, Kirby, until I have a robot in my house that just makes me my clothes? I'm just saying, hey. This is what I want. ChatGPT or whatever interacts with me, and they print it out, and they know what I look like. And it makes me look like I have bigger muscles than I do.

(Joel Beasley at 00:22:55) And so—

(Kirby at 00:22:58) I don't see that in the immediate future, because the diversity of products that you'll want would be really tough to put into one machine. So—

(Joel Beasley at 00:23:09) Okay. No preorders right now. I can't put in a preorder for that.

(Kirby at 00:23:13) No. I'd love it to happen, but one in every house, that'd be great. We're becoming so efficient that I'm not sure you'd want it in your house. You just kind of think of the raw material side of things. I'm opening up another can of worms here, but they tried to do that in the book industry where they were putting a book printing machine in every library and every bookstore and stuff, and it was brilliant.

(Kirby at 00:23:40) I mean, some of the things were unbelievable until you got to the reality that it still took five or six minutes. And the first customer, they don't have any trouble waiting five or six minutes for a book that's being printed right for them. But the third customer or the fourth customer, yeah, they're not so keen on that. Whereas if you have this mass production facility, you could print it and give it to them the next day to their house. So I think the retail model is going to change and has already started to change so dramatically.

(Kirby at 00:24:16) So where I'm—I'm going to go with Jim just for two seconds on this. My dream is Zebra are the best of the world at producing their bots in a laboratory environment. We think we're the best of the world at doing what we do, but it's merging the two and working in close collaboration that—what works in the laboratory doesn't always work well on the manufacturing floor. And so that's the exciting part of this relationship is working together to make it work seamlessly in reality rather than just the laboratory.

(Joel Beasley at 00:24:56) And then in reality, do you actually have—is there a product I can go buy today that would be made in your factories and shipped to me?

(Kirby at 00:25:05) Oh, yeah. Yeah. Lots of things. If you go to a website called Katla, katla.com, they make all sorts of beautiful women's clothing, very sustainable. She's kind of the top person in the field, using seaweed in their fabrics, which, you know, you think of green, you know, leaves all over you, but it's not.

(Kirby at 00:25:29) It's beautiful. It's woven in cotton, but it has a huge benefit to your skin, and it's quite something. And then you could look at, if you really want to have fun, go to Santa's Tailor, s-a-n-t-a-s-t-a-i-l-o-r. Just see that one, second.

(Kirby at 00:25:51) That'll shock you.

(Joel Beasley at 00:25:53) There we go. I've got the beard. I'm just not old enough to have gray.

(Kirby at 00:25:58) Well, there are two unions. There's the bearded Santas union and the non-bearded Santas union.

(Joel Beasley at 00:26:05) Fake. They're fake. Non-bearded Santa—is this for real? There's a non-bearded Santas union?

(Kirby at 00:26:11) Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

(Joel Beasley at 00:26:12) That's a whole other show we got to have on. Yeah.

(Jim at 00:26:14) We got to have it. Big business. So I think Kirby's sitting on a really important point here, which is the model I think that we're all trying to enable is provide a cost-effective way for customers to get what they want when they want it. And I don't necessarily want to be in that business per se. So I don't want to be in the shirt-making or the dress-making business. I don't want to be in the book-making business. But when I want a book or when I want a shirt, I want to be able to get what I want and when I want it. And so a lot of the innovation that we're all sort of collectively doing as an industry is really being driven by all of us as consumers. So it's the consumers that are driving the desire, and we are able to leverage technologies that we can develop together to go after that.

(Jim at 00:27:06) A former colleague of mine is creating an automation, an automated robot that grows cannabis in your house. And one of the questions I always asked him was—because there's also a huge sort of, you know, craft beer. You know, people make a lot of beer in their house. But the question I always pushed him on is how many people in the United States that want to use cannabis want to be in the cannabis-growing business versus want to be in the cannabis-using business. Right?

(Jim at 00:27:39) So I think there are a lot more of the latter than the former. At least where I am here in Boston, both recreational and medicinal cannabis are legal. So if I wanted some, I can literally five minutes from now go down the store and get what I want. And there are starting to be delivery services, so I get it delivered right to my house. I think there are a lot more people that want to be able to get what they want when they want it, whether it's cannabis or a book or a dress, than want to be in the cannabis business, the book business, or the dress business.

(Jim at 00:28:10) And so—

(Joel Beasley at 00:28:11) Groceries. Right? Like, groceries. Like, I'm not in the egg business.

(Jim at 00:28:15) You don't—if you want chickens, go for it. And many people do, but I don't want chickens in my house. I just want a, you know, a good scrambled egg when I'm ready. Yeah.

(Joel Beasley at 00:28:25) Yeah. So true. I do want the chickens, though. I have the chickens. Yeah.

(Joel Beasley at 00:28:30) Chickens and blueberry bushes. Like, what do you want to do this year? I'm like, I don't know. Let's see, chickens and blueberry bushes. Maybe potatoes.

(Joel Beasley at 00:28:35) Potatoes are super easy. I want to make sure that we hit on everything here. What's the one takeaway that we want them to have?

(Kirby at 00:28:43) If I could jump in on that, Jim, my takeaway is from the environment that I think people should be very cognizant to understand the chain of custody of what they're wearing and how important that is to the overall health of the planet. That, sure, buying a $1.99 T-shirt is wonderful and it saves you a lot of money, but if you know what the suffering is that has gone through and the pollution created to bring that over here, you know, you might rethink it. So it's really educating people that there are consequences to buying cheap products and there are consequences to the planet and to other people. You really should know kind of the chain of custody of where your clothes are coming from. That's my kind of deliverable.

(Jim at 00:29:33) You know, the—so I mean, the way I think about it is there's a song. I can't remember the exact title of the song, but the premise of it is there's a, you know, a boy that grows up, you know, that really wants to fly. And he, you know, tries putting, like, a potato sack on his back, and he jumps off the garage. And, of course, he comes crashing to the ground. But the sort of the key message from the song is, you know, he didn't know he couldn't fly, so he did. And so I think when we think about some of the most interesting, challenging, or, you know, awe-inspiring things that we can do, dream big.

(Jim at 00:30:10) Like, think about what we could do if we harness all of our collective energies and go after it. And so, you know, this—the idea of the art of the possible—you know, people would have said years ago that the business that Kirby's running isn't possible. And guess what? Those are not the people that created it. Someone, in this case, Kirby is like, there's got to be a way we can do this. Let's go figure it out. And so I think what's really interesting that in ways that sort of transcends the particular technology or the particular company is the opportunity to leverage things that we can create to enable these really amazing things in our lives. And so, you know, the fact that, you know, Kirby and others have focused on, you know, environment and sustainability, I think all of us would agree. We want to be able to have a planet that we can pass along to our children. And that's only going to come from people sort of thinking big.

(Jim at 00:31:10) So to be able to be a small part of creating some of the technology that can help that is just, you know, personally incredibly rewarding and gratifying.

(Joel Beasley at 00:31:20) Yeah. I love what you guys are both doing. I like where it's coming from as well. And Zebra's website, what's Zebra's website?

(Jim at 00:31:28) Zebra.com.

(Joel Beasley at 00:31:29) Zebra.com. And then what's BMC's website?

(Kirby at 00:31:33) Bmc.com.

(Joel Beasley at 00:31:35) Awesome. Yeah. Well, guys, we did it. We made a podcast. How do you feel?

(Jim at 00:31:40) Perfect. Yeah.

(Joel Beasley at 00:31:41) Thank you so much for listening. And if you found this episode useful, please share it with a friend or colleague who you think would get value from it. And if you have topics that you'd like to hear discussed on the podcast, either add me on LinkedIn or send me an email, [email protected]. Every time I get an email or LinkedIn message, it absolutely makes my day and inspires me to keep going.