The Path to CTO: Navigating Leadership, Teams, and Personal Growth with Grant Shih, CTO at Aramark Uniform Services

(Intro Narrator at 00:00:01) Today, we're talking to Grant from Aramark Uniform Services about his journey to becoming CTO and the understanding he gained from therapy. You're listening to Joel Beasley, Modern CTO.

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:18) So you're in this transition right now. What spawned it? You were a part of these discussions, I know, because we got to hang out at the golf tournament, that you have previous experience in M&A. But at what point at the company did the decision get made that it's a good idea to do a divestiture?

(Grant at 00:00:35) So Aramark actually announced plans for this about a year ago, and that was obviously prior to my time here. And so the Aramark leadership team and the board got together and figured out that there was a hypothesis put forth that both lines of business would be more successful operating independent of one another. So uniform apart from, you know, food services that Aramark primarily represents. And that's a hypothesis that, obviously, we're very bullish on and believe in, that the market will respond to. But then, you know, the value creation for shareholders is that both companies would operate at a higher level with greater margin, greater financials, as separate entities.

(Joel Beasley at 00:01:18) Aramark is food service? Yes. See, they're right. Their hypothesis is right. Every time I see that, I just associate it with the uniform business. Because when I first saw their trucks, they were doing the laundering of the, you know, uniforms and all of that.

(Grant at 00:01:33) Yeah. You'll see Aramark Uniform trucks. Those are our trucks on the road, obviously, serving our customers with their uniform and workplace solutions and services. Aramark trucks, obviously, are the ones that contain the food products and the items that you need to run, you know, the big stadiums around the country, prisons, schools, you know, all kinds of different institutions, even corporations that have kind of the catered lunch setup, anything that has those types of infrastructural food-related type services. That's the primary Aramark.

(Joel Beasley at 00:02:03) Yeah, makes sense. How long have they been doing this food side?

(Grant at 00:02:07) Very long time. It's a company that was, it has its roots, you know, back in the, I think, fifties, something like that. So been around for a while.

(Joel Beasley at 00:02:16) That's crazy, because I always see a restaurant. My parents had a restaurant growing up, and then I knew some other people. But you would always see either Aramark people come and do the uniforms and all of the anything that needs to get washed, and then you see Sysco come and do the food or whatever other brand it was. But I never connected. It makes so much sense from a business standpoint because you're already there, right? They're already rolling a truck out. Do they ever mix them? Is there ever, like, uniforms and food trucks?

(Grant at 00:02:43) They will show up at the same time. But because we don't share customer lists and things, that's why it makes sense to do the divestiture. It really is two separate businesses. You know, our customers ask for things that are pretty unique in terms of the situation. So on one hand, you know, you're supplying uniforms, you're supplying bathroom supplies and materials, linens, mops, floor mats. And on the other hand, you're being asked to actually serve, physically serve food and prep food. And so you typically don't want those on the same truck. You know, you don't want to put dirty, soiled linens in the same truck where I've got your, you know, food items. And so customers just want that separation. So, again, we've started and operate these businesses as separate entities for the most part. But, you know, there's some shared services that are actually going to be, obviously, impacted as part of this divestiture.

(Joel Beasley at 00:03:32) And so you're the head of technology there, and you come in. This divestiture is happening. I'm assuming that they had some shared resources that are likely going to get ripped apart from a technology standpoint, or have they been completely separate in their technology stacks the whole time?

(Grant at 00:03:47) Some of the folks are separate because there's applications that are unique to each line of business. So, obviously, that will remain, and there's really no impact there. But then, obviously, there are some shared capabilities that, to your point, are going to be—and I'd like to think it's not ripped apart, but shielded or folded into the right area of business and technical service providing. So from the Aramark side, you know, obviously, the infrastructure, the security, things like that that are specific to that side of the business will remain or go to Aramark, and then same thing on our uniform side. Right? We have things that are specific to us.

(Joel Beasley at 00:04:27) So, Grant, you're on uniform side. Is there a Grant version of you on the food side?

(Grant at 00:04:34) Yes. There is a CIO that covers all of Aramark, and then under him, there are lines of business leaders for the various IT groups. But then on uniforms, we're a little simpler. Right? So, you know, we have me, and then I've got my IT leadership team that covers all of our disciplines within technology services.

(Joel Beasley at 00:04:54) So you're working a lot with this CIO on the transition?

(Grant at 00:04:58) I am. And he's great. You know, Baker Smith is a wonderful global CIO for Aramark. We've had a great working relationship together. We actually were at Accenture together way back in the day at the same time without knowing each other. But, you know, small world, so big companies, but small world. And so we've got a lot of shared background and stories, and I really appreciate what Baker's done for that organization. He's been very helpful to me in terms of, you know, serving as a voice and guiding me through the organization here and really putting us in a position for success. So a lot of credit goes to him and the existing Aramark IT team.

(Joel Beasley at 00:05:34) Was Accenture your first gig?

(Grant at 00:05:36) It was. Coming out of college, that was my very first career opportunity. And, you know, obviously, back then, it was Andersen Consulting for a brief time before the rebrand to Accenture. But, yeah, I joined straight out of college into that organization.

(Joel Beasley at 00:05:51) What'd you learn there?

(Grant at 00:05:53) Oh, so much, Joel. You know, Accenture really represented such a great breadth of experiences for me. So whether you were talking about different industries or different technologies, different physical parts of the world, you know, all different types of customers and clients, a lot of different solutions being utilized, just a lot of innovation that was going on at the time. And then, as you mentioned, there were just different scenarios in the business world, whether it was mergers and acquisitions activities, whether it was, you know, brand new companies being formed. You know, obviously, I started working right around the startup and the dot-com and Y2K and all that craziness. So I've seen just a lot of stuff, and getting to see it from a perspective of being a management and technology consultant was just a great vantage point, frankly, to be able to see how those things were happening, how businesses were functioning and making money and really the impact on the people. Right? So we always talk about people, process, technology, but you can't underscore the people impact of it enough. You know, obviously, technology's great, but there is such a wake effect on us as humans and how we interact with it.

(Joel Beasley at 00:07:06) Until ChatGPT comes and takes all of our jobs.

(Grant at 00:07:10) That's right. That's right. Well, you know, ChatGPT has to be careful because without people to upset, what's its purpose, right?

(Joel Beasley at 00:07:16) Yeah. How long did you stay at Accenture before you moved on?

(Grant at 00:07:22) I was at Accenture for just about fifteen years. I think maybe a little bit more than that. Yeah. So it was a good long run at Accenture. And so, and, again, just so grateful for that opportunity and getting to work with and meet so many different people from around the globe, so many different perspectives. But, yeah, it was about a fifteen, fifteen-year consulting career for me.

(Joel Beasley at 00:07:44) Were you an individual contributor consultant the entire time, or did you run teams as well?

(Grant at 00:07:50) Yeah. No. Definitely ran teams. You know, at Accenture, like most consulting companies, you get on big projects, small projects. You go on to, you know, business development opportunities to try to win work. Then, you know, you either staff yourself or get staffed onto opportunities that could run anywhere from months in duration to years. You know, Accenture is such a large entity that, obviously, it's got a breadth and depth of project types that really spans every one of those categories. And so you had situations where people basically acted as if they were the client because that was the one and only project they had and was multiyear. But then you also had assessment work that took, you know, four, six weeks. I mean, then, you know, the further you get along in that career path, you also start doing some quality assurance work where you drop in for a week at a time and check in on a team and the work that's being done. So there was a wide variety and a very diverse set of experiences to be had at Accenture.

(Joel Beasley at 00:08:48) So you come out of school. You go into Accenture. Now when you were a kid, were you, like, a captain of the football team or soccer team? Or did you have, did everybody look at Grant like, oh, from day one, this guy is a leader?

(Grant at 00:09:01) Oh, gosh. No. I, I'm sure you can tell from my build that I clearly was first-team All-American quarterback. No, I'm kidding. Obviously not. So I probably was slotted to do something business-related. I don't even think it would have been technology-specific. You know, I always had a passion for how things worked operationally, how an organization makes money. You know, that's probably the thing that I pictured myself getting into. But, you know, as a kid growing up, I didn't, it's not that I didn't even think much about technology, but I really didn't think that would be my area of specialty. But then also as a kid, I was very naive in my understanding of the world. You know, I didn't really know what it meant to get into corporate jobs or what the business world looked like. And so, you know, it was one of those things that you learn and you shape, but now, when I was young, you know, I wanted and aspired to be like a professional athlete or drive a race car or do, you know, crazy stuff like that. But, no, I did not picture myself doing this when I was a seven-year-old kid.

(Joel Beasley at 00:10:04) So what happened? What was it from you going and starting on the Accenture team to you running your first team? How did that even come about?

(Grant at 00:10:12) Yeah. That's a great question. You know, the Accenture opportunity actually came pretty much through happenstance. You know, I remember eating in the UGA Dining Hall, and there was a brochure on the table, and I guess there was a career fair or something. There was this form for Andersen Consulting. So, you know, most of the time, I usually ate with people at school, but I remember this one time, I just was in between class. I don't know. I just didn't have long time for a meal, lunch, whatever it was. I had to get to where I was going in, like, fifteen minutes. And so I just sat down and there was, someone had left it behind, and so I started looking through it and in no way did it explain what it really did, but they had some fancy clip art type pictures and a lot of big words. And so I actually saw them at the next career fair. And I, again, I had read the brochure and I kind of got talking to some of the recruiters there, and it just so happened that one of the recruiters was also a marketing major from UGA, the same thing I was going through. And so she and I connected on it and had a common, you know, bond in terms of that degree path and in terms of that school. But, you know, I started to learn about it and, obviously, the simple way to put it was, oh, it's a chance for you to work on computers and systems. Again, when you're young and coming through school, like, for me at least, I didn't really know what that meant, but it was intriguing enough to go through the interview process and, you know, it was, for me in college at that time, what a top-notch experience. Right? They put you in a nice hotel downtown Atlanta. They have all these, you know, executives come in to interview you, and they take you through this whole experience. It's like a day and a half. And so it really sold me on the culture and just how exciting it would be to be a part of this and to know that you got to travel and, you know, see the world potentially and do a bunch of different stuff. And the fact that people couldn't really describe what it was, I think was intriguing to me at the time. And so, yeah, that's how I ended up there. And, you know, once I got into Accenture, I was, again, fortunate enough to be surrounded by so many people who really seemed to conduct themselves professionally and I thought really had a good perspective on the way the world worked. And so I ended up observing them, following them around, getting on the projects that they were on, and just keeping my eyes open for learning opportunities. That's how it all really started.

(Joel Beasley at 00:12:37) So now that you're farther along in your career, you can look back and realize how much you didn't know coming out of college, how green you were. But you're in this position now where it's part of your job to cultivate that next generation and to actually be looking at the people who are coming out of college and who are starting on your teams, at least when you skip-level stuff. I'm curious. They looked at you and put you in a room and did a bunch of interviews with executives. Now I'm assuming that you are seeing some of these individuals as well. What are they looking for? What were the executives looking for? Because you don't have job experience. Right? Like, you don't have, you know, five years at a competitor or nearby industry. You're just out of college, high school, college, and then you're there. What are they looking for in those individuals?

(Grant at 00:13:26) Yeah. Great question, Joel. And I gotta say that's probably the most professional way I've ever heard someone basically say I was a dummy coming out of school. But you're absolutely right. I didn't know anything, you know. And, again, at the time, I thought, man, I am, I'm going to be so great at this. I know all these things and, you know, I had all these experiences in college. It's going to be awesome. And I remember stepping in to Accenture and going, you know, what the hell am I doing? Right? And so I, it just shows it's all about perspective. It's about not assuming that you are an expert in anything right off the bat. But, you know, to your question, I think at the time when I joined Accenture, there was a lot of behavioral-based interview questions and a lot of how did you react in this team setting for school or, you know, in an extracurricular. What was the role you played? Why? There was a lot of probing questions basically on your psyche and trying to figure out how your brain was wired, why you made certain decisions, why you said certain things, you know, what actions you took in a particular set of circumstances. As I look now on this next generation of people coming in, I think that type of stuff is still important. But now I really want to see, what do people convert? If I give you a set of variables, what are you converting that into? Right? So we all look at, you know, facts, information, figures, but I'm very curious to see, you know, how you think and what conclusions you draw and, you know, how do you learn from either successes or mistakes? And so I gotta say, I would probably be much harder on myself interviewing me back then than the folks were. So I was fortunate in many ways to not go through that. But today, as I look at the up-and-coming talent, yeah, I think those are the things that I personally look for.

(Joel Beasley at 00:15:19) Off the top of your head, do you have any examples of a set of variables that you would give somebody?

(Grant at 00:15:25) You mean like a sample interview question?

(Joel Beasley at 00:15:27) Yeah.

(Grant at 00:15:28) Yeah. Yeah. I think you want to put people in situations like, hey, if there's a certain initiative for your organization that, you know, would be good, or you have a hypothesis would be good, but the people before you have tried and people have said it just doesn't work, or the board's not going to accept it, or you're not going to have the budget for it, or whatever the rationale or the excuses are, what do you do with that information?

(Grant at 00:15:54) Right? How do you approach it? Do you give up? Do you say, oh, because it didn't work before, I'm not going to waste my time to try? Or do you dig deep and say, if this is something I really believe in, this is something that based on my experiences, my history, the things that I've done, I know this to be successful, I know this is going to be something that works or has a very high degree of probability it will work, then are you going to stand behind it through thick and thin?

(Grant at 00:16:19) Right? Are you going to take the criticism? Are you going to be able to be mentally tough enough to hear people tell you no a couple times, to ask you to restate your facts, your justification, your business case, to critique what you're working on because you believe it really is the right thing for your organization, your team, whatever the case is, and stick it out? And I think what I want to see is if I gave you those set of variables, do you convert that into, you know what, if that is truly what I believe in, then that's something I'm going to do, and that's why we call it work.

(Grant at 00:16:53) It's not supposed to be easy. Right? We need to accept that things are hard for a reason. And if they were easy, then shouldn't we have already done that before? So those are the types of things that I want to see, you know, people getting back to that critical thinking, analytical thinking, connecting dots, and really converting that type of information into future actions.

(Joel Beasley at 00:17:17) I probably would have failed that to some degree. I'd say that the hardening of that happened in my early twenties gave me that ability. When you go through incredibly difficult situations in your life, then you have this new perspective and you can understand yourself a little bit better and what you want to stand for, how you want to spend your time. Specifically, when I was having a difficult moment, I remember the advice I got was find something you love and let it kill you. Right?

(Joel Beasley at 00:17:49) So, basically, I love this, and so I'm going to dedicate my life to this, and I will ultimately die doing this. And when you set that line in the sand with the universe, things start working incredibly different than you kind of floating around chasing the next hottest project or the most money. When you make that decision and you stake your life on it, it's just an entirely different set of responses.

(Grant at 00:18:13) I love it, Joel. I love getting deep. Right? So this is great. And, you know, I think I'm at a point now in my career where I realize, I think objectively speaking, I look back and I say, you know, even if I were to stop doing what I do today, I think I've done fairly well.

(Grant at 00:18:30) Right? I've moved on in my career. I've gotten to experience things. I've gotten to be a part of different stories and narratives and hopefully made an impact and been a positive influence at the places I've been and the things I've done. So I've done well.

(Grant at 00:18:45) It's now time to do good. And, you know, I want to give back to our society in a way that I feel aligned with. So, you know, whether it's through charitable work like my It Girls Foundation that I'm very proud of, or it's giving the best of my abilities to run a technology team, or, you know, to be a good positive executive at whatever organization I decide to spend my time, energy, and passion on. So I think you're hitting an important thing there, which is that realization of true fulfillment comes from when you believe in what you're doing and you're not being told to believe in it. And, again, that's something, you know, the best leaders in the world can't force you to care.

(Grant at 00:19:29) You know, they can try to highlight the reasons why they believe you should care, but at the end of the day, it's still your decision. And those things that you brought up, what are you willing to die for, or, you know, have things drive you into your grave on account of, right? That's your passions. Right? Those are the things that it's not that you want those things to kill you, but people always say, man, if I did this, I would die happy. You know, that's some hyperbole, but the sentiment behind it I do believe in, which is if you find the things that truly fulfill you, then they become not only easier, but those are the things that drive you. Right? There is a fun to be had in the process, not just the end result. And I think if you really think about it, there probably aren't that many things where you go, you know what?

(Grant at 00:20:14) The process is fun even if the result is not what I expected or what I wanted. And I think oftentimes in our professional lives, we're so results focused. Right? It's just about the outcome. It doesn't matter how we got there, if it was miserable, if we were lucky, if we used a hope and pray strategy, as long as the result's there, we're good.

(Grant at 00:20:32) And to me, I don't know. I want to do things that along the way in that process, I can feel proud of, I can feel good about, I can feel fulfilled with, and it doesn't really matter what the end result is. And, again, I mean, it's easier said than done. There aren't that many things that fit that mold, but I think when you find something like that, it's special and you hold on to it.

(Joel Beasley at 00:20:54) And how old are you now?

(Grant at 00:20:55) I am 46.

(Joel Beasley at 00:20:58) Okay. So I'm 35, so you've got two five-year cycles on me. I look at things in five-year cycles.

(Grant at 00:21:04) Such a nice professional way to call me old. I love it, Joel. Clearly, this is something you do for a living, and you're very good at it.

(Joel Beasley at 00:21:11) Thank you so much for the compliment. So I am 35, so I've done a handful of these. And what I notice is that, I guess my first one was around 15 to 18 is when I intentionally decided, hey, I'm going to try to do a five-year cycle and try to figure out where my life's going to be and get there in five years. And inevitably, every single time I look back at the person that started five years ago as the most novice, immature person. It's just like, wow, he didn't know anything.

(Joel Beasley at 00:21:39) But he was persistent, and he kept moving forward, and then I've gotten here. And so after the first one or two of those, I became comfortable with this idea that I'm not going to be great at everything all the time, but more importantly, I believe that I'm always going to look back in five-year increments and say, wow, he really didn't know much about anything. And I'm curious because you're two cycles ahead of me. Is that happening still for you?

(Grant at 00:22:11) So if I think back to when I was 35, at the time, I thought I'm at the pinnacle of my knowledge. Right? How much more is there to do? I know what I'm about. I know where I'm going. I know how to be influential. I know what's important to me. And I will tell you, 11 years later, some of those things are the same, but a lot of those things have been altered to your point. I think there's a much deeper level of understanding for the things that I do like or do not like, and then I've also picked up other things that are of interest to me or of passion to me.

(Grant at 00:22:46) So I'm with you. I never thought about it as a five-year cycle, you know, maybe more traditionally seven to 10 years in my mind. But, yeah, I think there's been some pretty big material changes with me in those cycles as you describe. And I think part of it is just being more self-reflective and, you know, going through a therapy process with a professional therapist. That's something I didn't do until really I was, you know, 40 years old.

(Grant at 00:23:12) And I wish I had done that earlier in life. I think that would've definitely been more helpful to me because it gave me a framework to better describe, I think, and understand the way I'm wired and what's really important to me and not just guess at it. Right? So I think I spent a lot of my time early on in my life, in my career, kind of guessing as to why I felt certain ways or why I went after certain projects or, you know, whatever it was. But now I have a much deeper understanding of the why, and that's important to me.

(Joel Beasley at 00:23:43) I consider myself somewhat of a life scientist where I don't really care what other people think as much. I just try to find things that work for me. Right? And then I'm okay with those. When you said you'd started some professional counseling, tell me a little bit about what is that experience like.

(Grant at 00:23:59) I think I grew up thinking therapy was for people who either had excuses or frankly just weren't smart enough to understand simple questions in terms of their personality, in terms of what was bothering them, in terms of what got in their way. And I think after going through that and having a very positive experience with it, I recognize now that, you know, good therapists take you through a journey of self-discovery and help you come to grips with certain things that are in fact a reality and not just things that you want to be true. So whether it's the world around you or about yourself, and I guess for me, going through that therapy helped me understand certain elements about myself that I recognize are difficult to change, number one for me. And number two, things that I probably just haven't put enough effort previously into trying to change or alter that were ultimately leading to my dissatisfaction or unfulfillment with something. And so until I'm able to get past those things, and by no means am I fully healed or solved, right, still a work in progress, but I think I'm much further along than I was when I was in my twenties or thirties or even my early forties.

(Grant at 00:25:23) And I think it's just having time and perspective and, again, some of that professional guidance and framework on how to see things, how to better organize your thoughts and emotions and feelings. And so I'm grateful for that discipline. I'm grateful for the people who've helped me and continue to help me in that journey and, you know, with a shout-out to that profession. Something I don't think I would have said 10 years ago.

(Joel Beasley at 00:25:46) So let's talk a little bit more about that. If someone's looking for that experience, obviously, there's a huge wide array of options in therapy. It's a very large area. What type of therapy, is there a framework or a type of specific practice area that you would recommend people explore if they, you know, just technology leaders like yourself?

(Grant at 00:26:10) You know, there's been some organizations I've been a part of where they actually hire in psychoanalysts, right, as part of the interview process or the onboarding process, and they actually sit you down with someone that literally asks about and probes into your earliest memories as a child and starts to dig into your family and how you were brought up and your belief system and why, you know, why did that come to be or where did that come from? And so, you know, I know a lot of this sounds like, oh, this is really working on yourself or, you know, the zen-like attitude and go and meditate in the mountains. But I think if you tie it back to a professional sense, once you're able to, I think, fully understand yourself and fully understand how you're wired, why you're wired, and, you know, what are the things in your background and upbringing that make you think a certain way, that helps give you clarity in terms of how you communicate and interact with the world around you. And I think as professionals, one of the best things that we can do is always constantly be working on how we interact with others.

(Grant at 00:27:11) You know, and there's a lot of people in positions similar to mine that I think struggle with, hey, I know the answer. I know what to technically do. No one listens to me, or I'm not able to get people to listen to me. And I think it's maybe less about, you know, what your knowledge is about the subject matter and more about your ability to influence and your ability to communicate.

(Grant at 00:27:33) And then ultimately, you got to look at, all right, what is it about the way I'm doing that that's not sticking with people? Right? What is it about the way that I'm projecting myself? You know, am I inflicting too much of my own emotional baggage into a simple statement? That's a turn-off for people.

(Grant at 00:27:51) And even if I don't agree it should be a turn-off for people, I have to accept that perhaps that is the case. And I think therapy helps you understand what the possibilities are for why you don't get something that you think should be right. And I think it also highlights that, you know, sometimes life happens on life's terms. We are big into planning as a society. There was something you said earlier in this podcast that made me think about, we are great at planning and, you know, thinking that we know everything at 35 and all these things, but sometimes life will just smack you, right, in the face.

(Grant at 00:28:27) Everyone's got a plan till you get punched in the mouth, and sometimes life has its own equation. And, you know, a lot of times in professional scenarios, we will analyze failed projects and say, I don't get it. You know, we set aside the budget. We did all this stuff. You know, we made a plan.

(Grant at 00:28:41) We made a work plan. We hired all the right people. Why did we fail? And, you know, sometimes there are factors just truly out of our control, and we can't control everything. And, you know, I think, again, you go back to that journey of self-discovery, and it helps you realize that, yeah, we'd love to think we're in control, but at the end of the day, there are some things truly out of our control that have nothing to do with us, and that's still going to vastly and directly impact the outcome of what we're trying to achieve.

(Grant at 00:29:10) And I think when you get that perspective of realization, you know, I personally have chilled a little bit more because I know we can do all the tactical stuff right and something still may not go right in our work life, in our personal life, and that's because sometimes life has its own little equation and variable that it throws in there, and it knocks you off your course. And I think, again, without that help, it's something I used to get really upset about and very emotional around and think, oh, if I did this different, you know, beat myself up. Like, if I was smarter about this or did this different, it would be a different outcome. Now I realize, you know, it may be the same outcome even if I did things better than I did. It may be a worse outcome.

(Grant at 00:29:53) Right? Sometimes things just happen, and so you can't always plan for it. But it's really how you respond to those things. And that's something I try to, you know, teach my teams is, we can do all the planning we want and train and do all this stuff with prep, and sometimes whatever we're trying to do just doesn't work, and that's okay.

(Grant at 00:30:11) There's something to be learned from everything, including the failures.

(Joel Beasley at 00:30:15) Oh, you can do everything right and it not work out.

(Grant at 00:30:17) That's absolutely right.

(Joel Beasley at 00:30:18) Something I'm very familiar with that. About 10 years ago, so I got hit by a car when I was a kid, so I do some, like, every once in a while, I'll see sports rehab people, then I'll have them help me with different stretches or things like that. But I went to this one for a year. Her name is Cynthia, and she was amazing.

(Joel Beasley at 00:30:35) And I would talk with her while we're doing that, right, because it's this hour-long session. And we talk about life and all sorts of other things while we're doing this physical activity. And one of the times she said, she goes, you know, I've noticed this pattern with you, and I've got some advice for you. And I go, okay, cool.

(Joel Beasley at 00:30:51) She goes, it sounds like you're often treading water, and you should figure out, you should try to learn how to surf. And I was like, oh, yeah. Because I was going uphill. I was drowning. I was flailing at different points in time, and she noticed that it was a trend.

(Joel Beasley at 00:31:05) And we're not talking about huge things. Right? It can be that can be happening on a smaller level, like a dinner didn't go the way you wanted it to. Right? Or something like that. And for her to share that perspective with me, that just got burned right into my brain, because when you develop the skills to learn how to surf, then you don't really have to worry about drowning that much. And if you get knocked off, you can just get right back on.

(Grant at 00:31:32) Isn't it amazing? Sometimes it does take that outside set of eyes and perspective to reflect back for you something that should be pretty painfully obvious. But when you're the one in the water and you're expending all that energy to stay afloat and tread, you feel like you are swimming. You feel like you're doing all the right things. But I think sometimes that's why it's so important to surround yourself with a network of people you trust who aren't afraid to do what that woman did for you, which is just tell you the truth and reflect back for you.

(Grant at 00:32:05) Hey, I think I know your intention, but I want you to know that this is the outcome. Right? This is what's happening. This is the observable stuff that's a result of what your actions are.

(Grant at 00:32:15) And in your mind, you may be thinking you're doing things to create a certain scenario or outcome, but in reality, here's what we're all seeing. Right? Here's what you're all experiencing. And I think when you're in the middle of something like that, it's hard to see it. So you need to have trusted people reflect that back for you.

(Joel Beasley at 00:32:32) And it takes a long time to build up that network, and it's almost never something like you can go to the grocery store and pick it up. It's almost always like you have this intention over the years. You realize there's just these people that stay around that you trust a whole lot. One of those people that I don't actually know in person, but I keep them around digitally, which is a thing we can do, right? It used to be books, right? But Jordan Peterson, he's a clinical psychologist, Canadian, and he talks a lot about personal development and different ways of thinking about things.

(Joel Beasley at 00:33:02) And he's got several different exercises and things that you can do to figure out more about how you operate and how you work. So if people aren't gonna go out and go to therapy today, start with Jordan Peterson because you can just YouTube video some of his tactics and skills, and you can definitely improve your life there.

(Grant at 00:33:21) I think you hit the key there, Joel. It's really about trying to improve. I don't think this is the kind of thing where you wake up one morning, all of a sudden you've figured yourself out, and now you've got clarity of thought and everything is less stressful and all your problems melt away. It's a process. And just like we talked about from before, if this is something you're truly convicted in, you believe in, that's your hypothesis, you need to stand behind it through the good and the bad.

(Grant at 00:33:45) Right? It's not always a linear path towards success. You're going to take steps back. You're going to fall. You're going to fail.

(Grant at 00:33:52) But if you believe that's the right path, you keep pushing forward. And, you know, in the professional sense, again, that comes back to if we really believe, based on our experience, our expertise, our history of things that we've done, that this is the right path forward, we've gotta persevere through it. And we acknowledge upfront, there's gonna be rough patches. Right? This isn't all every day or every moment we're making progress.

(Grant at 00:34:15) We will take some steps back. And as long as you can, I guess, accept that and still come to terms with it and still wanna do it, then that's where the secret sauce is.

(Joel Beasley at 00:34:26) Yeah. I just had a difficult transition from the black and whiteness of a lot of the engineering that I was doing early on in my career to the human side of things. And I mean, you just keep going and it definitely gets easier. One thing I learned that was a big lesson for me was in communication timing. So I'll bring it home with my personal relationship because my best friend, my wife, she's the one I get to spend the most time with.

(Joel Beasley at 00:34:55) I know that if there's something I wanna talk to her about, that she's got these windows. Like, these windows. They'll happen maybe a couple different times here and there where she's open and accepting, and if I were to say something, she'd be like, yeah, and she would actually implement the change. And then there's 99% of the time when that window is shut. So whenever something comes up, I go, oh, and I put it in my phone and I'm like, oh, here's my list of windows.

(Joel Beasley at 00:35:20) And then when she's in the window, I open up my window list on my app, and I'm like, alright, here we go. Now we can make some progress here.

(Grant at 00:35:26) What I appreciate about that, Joel, is you've learned to convert that knowledge into something that works for you. Right? And I think I hear what you're saying. Right? Like, my wife, I can talk to her about anything.

(Grant at 00:35:38) There's obviously better times than not to address certain things, and I think that's what you're alluding to. And, yeah, it's a great example. You know, I don't think it's something we talk about enough. Right? We're always focused on how to communicate, what to say.

(Grant at 00:35:50) We don't really talk about when to say it. You know, there are some things that it's truly a time and place, and I think when you look at the way certain corporations are run, yeah, there's the ill-timed messages. They're not the wrong messages, but again, having that human element and understanding, hey, people have gone through a lot of change. You know, as humans, we can only consume so much. And as a society, as a company, as an entity, it's like a human digestive system.

(Grant at 00:36:18) You can only consume so much. And at a certain point, you shove so many things in there, you're going to burst. Right? It's not gonna be a pretty sight. And so once you figure out what someone can consume or an entity can consume, then you have the knowledge and the ability to say, when do I feed it?

(Grant at 00:36:35) Right? When do I engage with it? And that's probably something we just don't do enough of, that critical thinking, that analysis of, you know, in my personal relationship, in my team, in my company, when is the right time to drive at this? Right? Is this really the right time to do this?

(Grant at 00:36:51) Not saying it's wrong. But if I want a positive result or a certain result, there is a timing element to it. So, yeah, I completely agree with you.

(Joel Beasley at 00:36:59) Yeah. Somebody on the show had described humans as, like, you can contain a lot of information, but you can only consume it little bits at a time. That's right. Often, I'll get excited about changes because I can see the future and how these changes will impact. And I'll go up to, you know, earlier on in my career, I'd go up to somebody and say, here's what we're gonna do: A, B, C, D, E, and here's the reasons D, E, F, J. You know? And it would all make sense, and it's all logical, and you can check the math and so on and so forth. And they just are like...

(Grant at 00:37:26) I stopped after your number B statement. Right? Yeah.

(Joel Beasley at 00:37:30) So learning how to be a human and introduce ideas and get feedback and understand, okay, I gave them this piece of information. This is how they took it. Now I'm... and then you just go... it's not deceiving or weird or anything. It's what it is, is it's effective.

(Joel Beasley at 00:37:46) It's like, okay. Here's the manual for how humans operate. You wanna get this done. You should have that manual, and then you should act accordingly.

(Grant at 00:37:55) I think there is such an art to so much of what we do. And, yes, I know we've talked so much recently about artificial intelligence and where the world's going with that type of technology, and I know it's very popular for people to elaborate on. But, you know, I still haven't seen an AI platform that understands timing to your point, the nuance. So it's right now all about what do I do to get the right answer and prove that I have knowledge or that I'm accurate or that what I'm asked for can be delivered. And it's all about speed and efficiency.

(Grant at 00:38:30) But to your point, part of the art is saying, you know what? Even though we could do this now, should we do it now? Is this the right timing? Right? Does the stem allow for this to be effective in the pot?

(Grant at 00:38:44) So, you know, can I put more into this pot right now without it overflowing or without the pot rejecting it? And I think those are the types of questions and, you know, deeper seated human thoughts that it still takes our experience, our expertise, and our feel for a situation to really ascertain.

(Joel Beasley at 00:39:03) Yeah. I'm very curious like a monkey. Like, I'll break the pot. I'll overfill it. I'll underfill it.

(Joel Beasley at 00:39:09) You know, I figure out some pots are better than others. You can get higher quality pots sometime.

(Grant at 00:39:14) You know, someone just asked me recently in a different conversation, what's my preferred way of learning? And, you know, obviously, we have so many sources at our fingertips now. Any search online, you have videos on how to do stuff and, you know, everywhere it's available. And so number one, I hear all the time, oh, you know, we have such a lack of time to do documentation. Like, really?

(Grant at 00:39:36) Is that how people are learning? Because, you know, for me, documentation's fine and all, but I need to get my hands dirty. I need to actually do something. Right? If it's, you know, maintaining a piece of machinery or appliance around the house, I can't just read about it.

(Grant at 00:39:48) I need to get in there and monkey with it and break it to your point, experience it, you know, really understand it before I can actually say I've learned it. And I think a lot of people probably think similar to that. You know, some people enjoy videos and being told or reading through a book, and that's great, but I don't think everyone learns the same way. And so with all these different platforms, all these different technology options, I think we still have to keep in mind and be very cognizant of the fact that there are different ways that people learn, and some of them are not in the, quote unquote, digital sense. Some of them are still in the very tactile sense.

(Joel Beasley at 00:40:24) Oh, I 100% agree. I studied learning quite a bit, especially, you know, running a company and trying not to go broke at the beginning when you have a startup. Right? It's all your money. It's on the line.

(Joel Beasley at 00:40:35) And trying to figure out exactly how all of that stuff works, super, super difficult. But when I would read a business book, you could sit there and read 50 business books, right, about how to do it, how to do sales pipeline management, how to do A, B, or C in marketing, all that. But if you were just to read one or none and you just go try it and you start trying things and having experience, when you go back... then I went back and read a book because I've read a bunch, and then I tried it. And then I went back and read it again. And I only needed to read right into just a couple pages into the first book, and I was like, it was so valuable because I had experience to tie that to.

(Joel Beasley at 00:41:12) Oh, that's why that didn't work. And so figuring out how to bind the knowledge to experience is, I think, a very important thing.

(Grant at 00:41:21) Absolutely. It's that conversion that we've mentioned a couple times now. You know, again, I think the material is all there. Right? The straight up technical knowledge, people are great historians.

(Grant at 00:41:32) They can document it. But until you find something that works for you, until you make it real for you, until you can consume it in the way that you're designed to consume it, it doesn't stick. And so that's something I've just been very aware of. And it's not just for me, it's for the people around me. You know, just because something works well for me, I have to accept and understand that's not how everyone wants to consume and digest something.

(Grant at 00:41:53) And so you've gotta have either different ways if you wanna be truly influential or truly, you know, try to make a difference and change thoughts and change actions, or you're just gonna get frustrated, sit there and go, why doesn't everyone think like me or do it like me? And that's not... it's just not realistic. Right?

(Joel Beasley at 00:42:12) Yes. That's our almost our default state, right, that other people are like us, and we have to constantly remind ourselves that they are not.

(Grant at 00:42:18) Right. And they're just as valuable, but, you know, maybe what it is is the difference of how we consume our intake stuff. And once we get it in there, we all agree to the principles, the values of it, and what it should be. But perhaps it's that ingestion point that is different for us and what is yummy and delicious for me, not so much for you. Once it gets in there, it's nutritious.

(Grant at 00:42:41) Right? It serves us and gives us the nutrients, but our intake on it is a very different experience, and so we have to acknowledge that.

(Joel Beasley at 00:42:47) Yeah. A lot of self-awareness, thinking about how we grow. But before we run out of time, I wanna talk about you said IT Girls?

(Grant at 00:42:56) Yes.

(Joel Beasley at 00:42:57) Tell me about that. What's that?

(Grant at 00:42:58) Yeah. No. Thanks for asking about that. So the IT Girls Foundation is an organization that really started about seven years ago. My now oldest daughter is 17.

(Grant at 00:43:09) But at the time, you know, she was in third grade, and she was a great student, very bright, always inquisitive. And then for whatever reason that year, some of the math homework perplexed her to the point of it really upset her that she couldn't get the answers right. And she cried one night and said, I wanna quit school. So clearly that wasn't gonna happen. But then as I was helping her, I thought, you know, she's probably not the only kid, especially young girl who feels this way.

(Grant at 00:43:38) And, obviously, you know, you're very plugged in to the technology world and STEM careers. There's more men than women, fact. We can debate as to why. We can debate as to if it's fair or not, but it's fact. Right?

(Grant at 00:43:50) There's stats, mathematical, you know, backings to prove it. And so IT Girls is really established as a forum whose mission is to say, hey, kids, you know, young girls who might be interested in the STEM career, we're gonna tell you straight up that you're walking into a career that's traditionally and currently male-dominated, and you may or may not probably are gonna hear sexist things, biased things, and be told that this is not, you know, something for you. And there's a reason why there's more men than women. And we're not here to argue that that's what people say. What we're here to do is to teach you some of these things and these skills and help you navigate through that if a STEM career is your passion.

(Grant at 00:44:32) And so what we've really done with the help of our network of guest speakers and contributors and, you know, volunteers is created an organization that operates in Gwinnett County here in Georgia, one of our largest counties, but at several schools where fourth and fifth grade girls get to experience the IT Girls program, which is an hour-long STEM, you know, real life lessons with hands-on activities and experiences for, you know, sixteen, eighteen weeks out of the school year. And for a lot of these kids, it is a chance for them to not only get deep into STEM topics, but learn traits of leadership, learn how to speak up in class, learn how to ask questions, see other professional women in STEM fields come and spend their time and share their stories with them. And so it's made a huge impact to the students, to the schools. It's something I'm very proud of. You know?

(Grant at 00:45:27) I have a board of directors that generously donates their time and their expertise into running this program. And, yeah, it's something I really believe in.

(Joel Beasley at 00:45:38) No. I love it. And you have how many girls... you have one girl, two girls?

(Grant at 00:45:42) So we have two daughters and two sons.

(Joel Beasley at 00:45:45) Okay. Cool. What's the age ranges of all of them?

(Grant at 00:45:48) Oh my goodness. They are six, seven, twelve, and 17 now.

(Joel Beasley at 00:45:52) Okay. All 17. Spectrum. Yeah. That must be... it's quite the dinners at home. Right?

(Grant at 00:45:59) It's never quiet. So yeah.

(Joel Beasley at 00:46:03) Well, I like that you're doing that. I believe that anytime you're going to go on an adventure, whether that be your career or some challenge that you're looking to do, it's very important to find people who are like you to connect with and figure out, you know, what you're gonna be up against and just surround yourself. I mean, there's comfort in that as well, you know, building relationships and figuring that out, and I think that that's super important. But I like the way that you handled it. I would say I give you five stars on your ability to articulate it without it getting... divulging into some other type of conversation.

(Joel Beasley at 00:46:36) Right? Because I love how you set it up at the beginning where, okay, look, this is what it is, you know, and then we're just gonna help these people. Here's the expectation.

(Joel Beasley at 00:46:46) Here's what's likely going to happen. Here's how you can handle it and so on and so forth. It's no different than me being an entrepreneur. I mean, we're definitely a minority in the country. And what do I do if I'm gonna go on this very difficult thing?

(Joel Beasley at 00:46:57) I'm gonna go find other entrepreneurs and say, hey, what are we up against? You know? What am I gonna experience with employees? What am I going to experience here?

(Joel Beasley at 00:47:06) And then we just help each other, and that's what it is. So I love that you had a daughter and you are able to do that for her and then also within your local community because I really believe that stuff is best served similar to, like, church. Right? It's best served in your local community and not at a federal level. Right?

(Grant at 00:47:26) Yeah. Look, I would love this program to be big and national and global, and I do think there's a value to it. But, you know, when I walk through the halls of the schools that we're in and I hear feedback from the teachers, from the students, from the parents, it validates what we're trying to do here. And it really speaks to the mission.

(Grant at 00:47:45) You know, we're not looking for mass appeal and a diluted experience. I know what we're bringing to these kids individually and how we're shaping their thought process and giving them a safe space to explore these very tough questions in life before the, I would say, the results are either detrimental or too impactful. Right? This is a very safe environment.

(Grant at 00:48:07) It's built for them. And, again, you know, just a big thank you to everyone that's been a part of it. Without the volunteers that come in and speak at 7 a.m. to these girls, there wouldn't be that value. Right? Without the teachers and the schools giving us that space and that forum to operate in, we wouldn't be able to do this.

(Grant at 00:48:23) So, you know, time will tell. I hope in thirty years, we don't need an IT Girls. Right? That, you know, that this problem of having a disproportionate number of men and women in careers that both have a passion in, we can start to remove that. But, you know, that's our focus.

(Grant at 00:48:39) Right? We just wanna prepare this next generation for that reality and to work within it.

(Joel Beasley at 00:48:44) I love it, man. You're doing good stuff with your time. I know that you have to stop at five over, and we're six over. So I just wanna say thank you so much for doing this. This won't be our last conversation.

(Joel Beasley at 00:48:55) I love you and Allison. You guys are great human beings. So next time I'm in Atlanta, we'll get the kids together. My mess and your mess, we'll get them all together. The chaos.

(Grant at 00:49:04) Absolutely. Let's have them not quite all together though.

(Joel Beasley at 00:49:10) Yes. You get it. Thank you so much for listening. And if you found this episode useful, please share it with a friend or colleague who you think would get value from it. And if you have topics that you'd like to hear discussed on the podcast, either add me on LinkedIn, or send me an email [email protected]. Every time I get an email or LinkedIn message, it absolutely makes my day and inspires me to keep going.