Biju Shoolapani - Optimization, Modernization, & Transformation

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:03) Hello, my friends. Today we're talking to Biju, the global leader of digital core transformation at Hexaware. And we discuss the process of optimization, modernization, and transformation of a business, building empathy in engineers by having them think like consultants, and the importance of leading by example as a leader. All of this right here, right now on the Modern CTO podcast. Here we go.

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:28) This is the Modern CTO podcast.

(Biju at 00:00:32) Here we go.

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:33) This is the Modern CTO podcast.

(Biju at 00:00:44) I started my career twenty-four years back. So right out of college, I joined as a software developer. And I've been doing a lot of things, right? Developer, architect, project manager, or a program manager type thing. So typically what you see in an IT services firm.

(Biju at 00:01:06) So the first ten years of my career, I was doing a lot of these roles, also managing customers, their expectations, and also managing some of the aspects around building business in the services firm, right? Right after the late ten years, I thought, okay, let me switch over to a different role. And obviously, one of the key things that kept me interested is this whole thing around how technology can be transmitted, right, in many scenarios. And I wanted to really explore that and see how do I kind of grow into a role where I can actually drive the transmission using technology.

(Biju at 00:01:49) And I stepped into a role where I started being part of the technology labs right after ten years of doing a lot of things, but then started off again with being a developer, playing with emerging technologies as they come. Right? It's always cool right in the start. But what I also realized is if I play with technology, I have to make it count for the business. Right?

(Biju at 00:02:16) It should in some way or form serve a purpose. And that's something that's an early realization I started seeing. How do we kind of bring convergence where technology itself can be a game changer, and be addressing practical problems? Right? And that's where within my early stages, we were also trying to incubate ventures, so to speak, where we were trying to take up an idea within a services firm but then create them as startup ideas pitched to the leadership to get funding.

(Biju at 00:02:55) So my journey has been right from a developer going into some software management and then stepping back to be a developer again, and then going and doing some startup type, creating platforms and solutions. In Hexaware, today I play the role of the leader for the digital core transformation. And this team actually looks at how to use technology to modernize some of the core IT systems within our customers. And I think we'll be talking more about how this is very, very much required for now, right, and why this is going to become relevant.

(Joel Beasley at 00:03:41) Yeah. Absolutely. Would you be able to tell me a little bit about how did you get involved with Hexaware originally? Like how'd you first hear about them and what really drew you to the role?

(Biju at 00:03:51) Right. So I knew Hexaware. It's been—Hexaware has been around for like twenty-plus years. And one of the key things is I think the people and the culture that they bring is something that's really attracted me. And while I started engaging with a lot of the leadership team within Hexaware, something that stood out for me was the vision that Hexaware had. In fact, the key things that they've been talking about is how they pivoted towards automating everything, moving all their customers to the cloud, and also about transforming customer experience.

(Biju at 00:04:32) This is something that they've been doing for the past four, five years. Right? So that vision has been in place. And some of the key elements is around how they are actually using people and technology to spread smiles, right? That's something as a vision that they have created and it's all about passionate people driving a lot of change for our customers.

(Biju at 00:04:56) So I think a lot of that has actually kind of attracted me to say, okay, this is the right place for me to kind of start a different set of my career.

(Joel Beasley at 00:05:06) Man, I love that mission statement, spreading smiles. That's so good. So can you share with me like a brief overview of what Hexaware actually does?

(Biju at 00:05:16) Sure. Hexaware is into IT services and consulting, and we have services that are provided across all the different domains, banking, financial services. We also do high-tech and professional services, retail, manufacturing and consumer goods. So across different industry domains. And one of the key things that Hexaware is moving towards is trying to create a platform-led way of driving the business.

(Biju at 00:05:50) Right? So there are three major platforms that Hexaware is pivoting towards. One is called Amaze, and Amaze primarily kind of focuses on taking customers automatically to the cloud. So a lot of times you're seeing today when you have applications, then you basically have to move them to the cloud. A lot of times it becomes a bespoke process.

(Biju at 00:06:14) But Hexaware is pivoting towards a platform-led way of driving that whole journey, right, to the cloud using a platform that they have as Amaze. Similarly, in the transform customer experiences, the second dimension, there, they have Mobiquity as one of the key levers that they're using to kind of help customers reimagine their business, right, in the new world. And the last one is around how once you've done the transform to the cloud or you've done the reimagine the business, you need to keep them up and running. Right? Keep the lights on.

(Biju at 00:06:57) So that is actually driven through the Tensai platform that Hexaware. So one thing that I'm seeing different from a lot of the other IT services firms that are there is they are actually focusing on a platform-led way of driving the business as they go forward.

(Joel Beasley at 00:07:13) That's really cool. So I saw on your website a couple of your company's official strategies are automate everything and cloudify everything. And that sounds like a very complex task with the word everything in it. And I'm just curious, how do you manage the complexity of when you're working with like a larger organization and there's so much to handle?

(Biju at 00:07:38) Right. I think the key thing in that whole everything statement is the reflection of the passion that we want, where we want to leverage automation as the first step forward. When we engage with our customers in any of the pursuits that we have, the first thing that we look at is can we automate certain tasks? Right? So be it in the application development area or even the testing or any of the other services that we provide, automation becomes something that absolutely has to be a part of that program.

(Biju at 00:08:18) Right? So obviously, we can't automate all the tasks. It's about that passion and that focus in a lot of our engagements to drive automation as a key lever. And the cloudify part is more towards—it's something that we're seeing. Right?

(Biju at 00:08:33) Today, in lot of cases, the innovation happens faster on the cloud. Right? And lot of times today, if you look at cost and maybe any of the other levers, if you basically move to the cloud, you are able to kind of leverage one, best-in-class services, but also drive down the cost in a big way. So this becomes a strategy for us where we think customers will surely want to move to the cloud. We are actually providing the segue by creating those architectures and patterns which allows them to be cloud-ready, right, to start with, but also move them quickly to the cloud as and when it is required.

(Joel Beasley at 00:09:18) Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about the digital transformation process, like, in practice, because I saw in some of your other company materials that like the three main steps are optimization, modernization, and then transformation.

(Biju at 00:09:33) Mm-hmm.

(Joel Beasley at 00:09:34) And so I'm just curious. Let's start with optimization. What does it mean to be well-optimized for digital transformation?

(Biju at 00:09:41) Sure. I'll take a step back because one thing that I want to talk about is what is really happening today in terms of digital transformation. So one thing that we are seeing today is the pandemic or the post-pandemic—I don't know if you can say post-pandemic yet—but as part of the pandemic, one thing that we are seeing today is everything is online and obviously that also means that a lot of the businesses are requesting for a lot more of those digital services to be available. So indirectly, it is actually pushing up the number of digital projects that are actually being requested. Right?

(Biju at 00:10:20) And also means indirectly, it is also pushing up the digital transformation in a big way. And essentially, a lot of times when you set the stage for digital transformation, the important thing that you need to do is to see if your organization and whatever you have as IT services are ready for it. Right? And basically, it could be resulting from a lot of money that you're spending today on IT services which are not ready for this age and type, right, for digital services. And basically, we continue doing that because we are saying, okay, we don't have the money to invest, to change.

(Biju at 00:11:05) But that also, if you really look at it, it is pull-pushing you back in terms of actually doing digital transformation. So optimization, as a first step, requires you to understand your landscape of what you have within the organization, understand which parts of these systems are ready for your digital journey and which are the ones which are actually pulling you back. Right? And some of this also over a period of time, I think you would have seen in many organizations, the digital—the projects or the platforms that they have, not the digital ones, the non-digital ones, are basically not even being used. Right?

(Biju at 00:11:52) There's no usage of that. They're just lying there. They just serve a small part of the business. So optimization allows you to, one, start by getting ready for the transformation journey, rationalizing the set of services and applications that you have. Right?

(Biju at 00:12:10) And setting the stage for what you want to save. Right? You save the money, get the money back to the business to see if they can actually use it for digital projects. Right? But also the key thing is it's always about creating a roadmap.

(Biju at 00:12:27) Right? So when you look at digital transformation, if you look at it in a short-sighted way, you might say, okay, I will just start by transforming my front end. Right? I will just transform my mobile application. I will have some web application created.

(Biju at 00:12:44) Right? So transform the front end is the first step that you take. But does that really help in the longer run? Because your web applications have to talk to your back-end systems, and essentially if the—and a lot of times you've seen this. Right?

(Biju at 00:12:59) So you open the floodgates, right, using your front door. You have a nice fancy thing where the requests start coming in, but your back-end systems and your processes or operational systems don't really capture or are not able to serve to what those expectations are. Right? So optimization is the first step where, one, you start rationalizing. You see fitment for use, fitment for purpose, right, and then set the stage for the transformation itself.

(Joel Beasley at 00:13:33) So, yeah. So optimization, the biggest part of it is setting the strategy and roadmap for going forward and setting yourself up for success. So what are—when you're looking at the roadmaps, maybe if a company put together their own roadmap, what is like a common mistake that you see?

(Biju at 00:13:54) See, a lot of times, so it is about reacting to the market, right? A lot of times when we talk to customers and review their roadmap, most of the times it is about, you know what? We need to set up this customer interface where users want to have a nice-looking website or a mobile application. Right? That is the purpose statement that is actually defined.

(Biju at 00:14:24) But they don't follow through to say how that experience element will be served. So does it mean it is just a nice-looking website? Do I look at whether my services will be delivered in a shorter time? Right? So if I say, if it is creating a policy.

(Biju at 00:14:44) Right? Now a lot of times, digital transformation is about the competition between the traditional companies and the new-age companies. The new-age companies who are doing it greenfield are actually thinking about delivering products and services in real time. Right? So if you want a policy, as and when you enter the details, you click the button, boom, the policy is available to you. Right?

(Biju at 00:15:10) But in a lot of other cases, you start by saying, okay. I want to transform. It's a nice-looking front office that I set up for my customers. But then once they finish that process, the underlying systems that are behind the scenes will take forever. Right?

(Biju at 00:15:26) It'll take the traditional one week, two weeks to actually serve and then deliver it to the customer. So it is about synergizing the different layers that you have and the services. I think that is a definite gap. Right? So while the experience part of it is being defined, it is also not being followed through to say how will that service be delivered, right, in real time or how is that experience going to be changing overall, right, for the customers.

(Biju at 00:16:00) So that is one area. But the other thing is a lot of times, this also is not looked at holistically over a period of time, saying how do I create the roadmap which is just not for the next six to eight months or twelve months. What happens in that case is you are always trying to—it's like after six months, again, you're course-correcting. Right? You don't know what you have to do next.

(Biju at 00:16:26) What is the next set of things that I have to change? Then a lot of times, businesses are very complex. It is not that what you have built over many years—the end processes and systems are complex. So you need to have a plan in place which basically allows you to drive the change, right, in a sequential and a planned manner. And so some of the challenges—I'm sure there are many more—but common mistakes that people do is, one, not looking at it holistically of serving the experience to the end customer.

(Biju at 00:17:03) The second part is creating a plan which is more holistic, considering all the parts, right, rather than just the front office kind of a thing, right? A piecemeal approach.

(Joel Beasley at 00:17:16) Right. So I think to summarize to make sure I understand, a lot of the time you see roadmaps that are just generally short-sighted, whether it's only thinking about the front end and doing the bare minimum or not thinking long-term enough with their planning.

(Biju at 00:17:35) Okay.

(Joel Beasley at 00:17:35) Okay. Cool. So let's talk a little bit about modernization. Once a company is well-optimized, what is the modernization process? And one thing that I really want to clear up for myself is how is modernization different from transformation?

(Biju at 00:17:53) Right. See, a lot of—yeah. So the key thing is once you basically set the stage and have a roadmap of how you want to go about doing it, the key thing is the modernization is about your different parts of your system that need to be upgraded or updated. Right?

(Biju at 00:18:19) So obviously, you need to know what is it that you need to—how do you approach it? Meaning, do I kind of rewrite it? Do I look at a SaaS platform that I can bring in essentially to basically fill in that particular function? Should I look at some of the other cloud services that I can leverage? Right?

(Biju at 00:18:46) So what exactly are the—so one is to map out different functions, but then say, what is the right fitment for that function? Should I do a rewrite? Should I do a rehost? Should I do some kind of a refactor? Or should I bring in something like a SaaS environment or a platform to basically serve that particular function?

(Biju at 00:19:11) Right? So creating a unified strategy of how you would go about modernizing your different parts of your system is the next step. Right? While you—and the difference is, see, typically here you are trying to just bring in some level of agility in whatever you want to do as you go forward. Right?

(Biju at 00:19:36) Modernization is about bringing a level of agility into your systems so that one, they can work seamlessly with each other, and the other thing is whatever you had as a lot of legacy debt. This could be in the form of maybe mainframe systems, which is again sapping up a lot of cost. Skills are not available, so there's a lot of risk that you actually accumulate with legacy systems. So how do you reduce risk is a core agenda for the modernization. The second thing is a lot of these systems are not talking to each other.

(Biju at 00:20:16) So that also means that there are these walled gardens that are created. So how do I make those systems start synergizing and talking to each other to improve agility? That is also the second part of what you will achieve with a lot of the modernization levers. And the last part of it is how do you holistically plan the roadmap?

(Biju at 00:20:43) So we talked about while you do optimization, you create some kind of a roadmap of what needs to be done. So this is about how do you typically address. You can't blindly go about taking a SaaS platform or any other thing and just plugging it. So there should be some way that this needs to synergize into a whole that will again set the stage for the transformation.

(Biju at 00:21:08) So as a business, if I say that in the transformation stage I will need my services to be available as APIs to the external world, my strategy is to have consumable APIs for others to leverage. And I would see the B2B channel as the one that will take me forward. So if that is a vision that I have for transformation, then I need to set those elements accordingly.

(Biju at 00:21:40) What are the technologies that I leverage to do this? What kind of integration platforms will I use to basically make this happen? How do I define security of whatever I'm actually providing as a service? So all those dimensions come into play while integrating the different parts of the system, which is actually setting you for the transformation stage of the journey.

(Joel Beasley at 00:22:10) Got it. So it's about planning and executing on what hardware and software tools you need to upgrade in order to support your transformation strategy.

(Biju at 00:22:24) Right.

(Joel Beasley at 00:22:24) Okay. Awesome.

(Biju at 00:22:26) No, it's because there are different pieces here. So it is just not the hardware and the software that comes into play. It is also because this also leans into things like what is your business strategy?

(Biju at 00:22:45) What are you trying to achieve as you go forward into your transformation? So there is a little bit of a top-down element of how you go about defining your business, how do you want to take it forward. So those elements around architecture, design, all those aspects come in. But to your point, yes.

(Biju at 00:23:04) It is about how you define your software, your applications, your platforms, and then the underlying hardware, whether they are in the cloud, in the data center, how do they talk to each other. All those elements come into play.

(Joel Beasley at 00:23:22) Awesome. So you're set up. You're optimized. You're modernized. What does it look like now that you're in the transformation process?

(Biju at 00:23:32) So I think you have done all the good work. So obviously optimize, modernize, you've actually set the stage. Now transformation is a place where you're truly setting the stage for scale-up. So obviously, one of the key things is as a business, you're trying to say how do I scale my business?

(Biju at 00:23:57) How do I kind of create the next big unicorn type of vision for most companies? Now that also means that you need to look at how we are integrating with the larger ecosystem that is there. So today, if you look at a business like ecommerce, is it ecommerce in a headless way? Because a lot of the ecommerce setups today are moving headless. It doesn't matter whether you are on the web, you are on the mobile, but also different channels. Any channel can be a relevant channel. It could be a smart TV. It could be maybe a voice-based interface.

(Biju at 00:24:47) So obviously, how do you scale your business will depend on how accessible is whatever you're trying to do as a business. The second part of it, and which is again early days for many businesses, is this whole area around data monetization. So today, you look at services, services monetization or API monetization as a key lever that actually scales your business out into those different channels.

(Biju at 00:25:17) But the second dimension of it is your data itself can be a first-class strategy for you to take forward. So this also means that a level of maturity that is required, the services layer opening up, operating in a headless way is one level of maturity. But then opening up your data, data systems and data monetization is a separate level of maturity as an architecture or how you go about doing transformation. I think some of these levers where you as a business start giving the power back to the ecosystem, where your services and your data is something is a first-class citizen and can bring you back revenue, is a transformation that you're seeing in many businesses. And then typically the internet giants, they have been doing this for ages. It's not that there's no live examples of how data monetization is being done.

(Biju at 00:26:12) There are examples there. But for a lot of the other businesses in the traditional world, I think this is a real possibility. Now with cloud and a lot of the other things that we're doing in the modernization phase, this is going to set the stage for them to become like the internet companies, like the Facebooks or the Googles of the world.

(Biju at 00:26:41) Every one of these businesses have an opportunity to scale.

(Joel Beasley at 00:26:45) Yeah. Every company is a tech company. That's what they say, right?

(Biju at 00:26:48) Everything is a platform. Yeah. What you say is so every business is now becoming a platform. I mean, everything is a platform-driven way of doing it. Everything is kind of Uberized or whatever you want to say. The experience is so thin that everything is platform driven. Yes.

(Joel Beasley at 00:27:08) Platform driven subscriptions, never buying anything for like the full price upfront.

(Biju at 00:27:16) Yep. Yep. Yep. All those models. Yeah. I think that is something that in today's age and world and way, I think the key thing is as a company, maybe the dreams are already there. A lot of the traditional companies want to get there faster. But it's a journey.

(Biju at 00:27:37) It also means that your platforms and whatever you have as the core IT systems have to mature to that level to be able to achieve that scale that you're talking about.

(Joel Beasley at 00:27:50) So I feel like we've covered pretty well how existing, more traditional companies need to go about their transformations. If a technologist is starting a company today, what are some of the key steps they can take so that they can evolve naturally with the technology landscape and not have to go through a transformation process down the line?

(Biju at 00:28:19) And what I said earlier, right? So I think a lot of times when you're starting fresh today, it's like a Lego block. So you are actually naturally protected from a lot of the mistakes that you will do because today when I want to start up a business, a lot of the services that I use today are from the cloud, or most of it is on the cloud.

(Biju at 00:28:46) I start by building my business on the cloud. So a lot of the challenges that people traditionally had in terms of scale, in terms of building up a business with a lot of money upfront, all those things are out. So obviously, you have the leverage of using the best technologies that come to life, and then you can put it all together upfront. But I think there's also a downside to this because today there's a lot of technology.

(Biju at 00:29:16) So even when you want to do something, if you want to build a business or you want to do your choices, you're spoiled for choices in terms of what do you have as PaaS services, what you have as different cloud service providers. And also the same problem can be solved in 10 different ways as a business. So it becomes important for you to, one, get into this mode of understanding the landscape of what you're trying to address.

(Biju at 00:29:47) Because a lot of times you see that as young developers, they have a lot of curiosity. They like technology. They just want, it's a shiny object.

(Biju at 00:29:58) And this is something that I've also noticed with a lot of technology people. They want to take the first shiny toy, try and do something with it, which is good. It actually serves purpose in terms of curiosity. But a lot of times if you can think of it in terms of the larger landscape of whatever you're building, how does your customer perceive whatever you're building? What are the business viability of the cost versus performance of whatever you're trying to do? Build those elements right in the beginning of whatever you're planning.

(Biju at 00:30:34) And sometimes when you do the VC funding and a lot of those things, those validations happen automatically. But as a developer, as a person who wants to start up on a new journey, some of these things, if you can do it upfront, understanding the larger landscape, understanding the risk element in whatever your choices are. And a lot of times, you don't have to wait for building out the entire thing. It is about failing fast.

(Biju at 00:31:02) So obviously, testing out that hypothesis around what are those risks becomes the key aspect. And the last, or the other thing is, in many cases, it is about also collaborating with many peers. And today I see that technologists are very passionate. They communicate passionately about their idea. They, if you ask them to talk about the technology, how did you go about solving the problem, they'll communicate very, very fluidly, talking for hours on what they did and how they did it.

(Biju at 00:31:39) But they lack one aspect, which is around collaboration. Effectively talking about or collaborating with different people and understanding the dynamics of what you're trying to do. So some of the dimensions of what you should look at while you pick a problem and then translate it into a business.

(Biju at 00:32:04) I'm sure there are others, but some of the key things that pop up in mind that I could bring up.

(Joel Beasley at 00:32:10) That's awesome. It sounds like you think a lot about bringing up the next generation of technologists.

(Biju at 00:32:16) Right. Right. Yeah. I've been working with a lot of the technology architects through my career. And it's been always, I would say these are the nice guys. All the technology guys, not that the others are bad, but these are all guys who are very honest, very nice. But also, that actually sets them back a little bit. Some of them also are like, have this wolf pack mentality. They only work with people of their own types. They're always, that pride mentality element is there, which actually at some point actually limits them to be successful as maybe an entrepreneur.

(Biju at 00:33:07) Because they will not be able to capture some of these things around the emotional intelligence or kind of sensing different dimensions of the problem. That is something that I'm thinking that as technologists, you need to also develop a lot more of the softer side of the problem, about emotional intelligence and also thinking about other people's viewpoints. Just like architectural viewpoints, I think a lot of people are very, very single-dimensional in whatever they do. They don't actually go and sit across the board on the other side and see from a different viewpoint.

(Biju at 00:33:51) So some of those dimensions will help actually for these budding technologists to kind of at least translate their potential at a faster pace. Obviously, there are born entrepreneurs who inevitably have that gift of doing things. But this is, I'm saying, for the general thing. A larger population of technologists, I think that is something that they can actually work on.

(Joel Beasley at 00:34:22) So do you have any like programs in place at HexaWare to help your engineers build their emotional intelligence and empathy?

(Biju at 00:34:32) Right. It's something that is in the works. I used to do this. So it used to be called Coder to Consultant.

(Biju at 00:34:40) So, see, it is very difficult for us to train people on the job until unless you create some kind of simulation. So the Coder to Consultant program that I've designed is more like a simulation. So people generally, if you actually put them in a particular situational context, the general muscle movement is what they go about doing.

(Biju at 00:35:06) They automatically shift to their reflexes or whatever. So if you put them into tight situations where they are asked to think and act, that's when they actually start demonstrating that they are good developers. And that means they have a lot of curiosity. They have grit and determination in solving problems. They are passionate about communicating, and they have a lot of attention to detail. So they show all those characteristics, being modest, showing this wolf pack mentality. But being a consultant is about the larger picture. So the idea of the simulation is to actually bring out those traits which are what they generally show on on the work. Their muscle movement, their default muscle movement. And then we actually throw a light to show how this could have been done differently in that simulation.

(Biju at 00:36:11) So this gives them a perspective of what are those, and I'm not saying as a consultant, you don't code. Coder to Consultant doesn't mean once you step over to consultant, you don't code. But the thought process is that as a consultant, you start seeing the broader picture and start connecting the dots.

(Biju at 00:36:33) And then that results in a lot more of the transformation that you want to drive in the future.

(Joel Beasley at 00:36:41) That's really cool. I love the Coder to Consultant mindset there. So when you're hiring new talent, when like when you're in an interview with someone, how do you kind of gauge their level of well-roundedness?

(Biju at 00:36:56) Right. I think the important thing is, see, the one-hour interview, it is always difficult. And I always feel that it is a very difficult, I mean, a lot of times you have seven or eight rounds of interviews where you put the person through different people, they get different context and understanding. So one is we have those different levels of interviews where we start kind of probing them on all different dimensions. So that is one.

(Biju at 00:37:30) But I think the most important thing for me is if you actually throw in a problem, the approach that you take, whether you start by immediately solving the problem versus you start understanding the problem, you ask questions. You understand the context of what is required.

(Biju at 00:37:52) That basically says that you're not just an in-the-box thinker, but you're always putting yourself outside the context. Outside the box, you're looking at different dimensions, looking through different lenses, so to speak. And then you start approaching the problem. That gives me a perspective that this person has started on the journey.

(Biju at 00:38:17) And many times, I think if you have actually gone through the journey where you've tried to do a startup, you failed, failure's your best lessons that you've learned. And most people who have gone through their journey actually start thinking differently. You don't just jump in into just starting to do versus taking a step back and thinking through it.

(Biju at 00:38:42) That becomes a, it's more of a mindset thing. I would say it's no silver bullet there, but it's more of a mindset. And I think it is just for us to see how well-rounded are you. So, yeah, some of it is experience. Some of it is some innate approach that you have in how you approach these problems.

(Joel Beasley at 00:39:04) Alright, so I want to put you on the spot a little bit here. What's an early failure from your career that you really learned from and has stuck with you? Like, the lesson has stuck with you.

(Biju at 00:39:16) Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, obviously there's been many failures. But I was actually trying to do something like a startup of my own, right? And I had a brilliant idea, and I thought it was brilliant. So not that others thought too, but I thought it was a fantastic idea. And I sat down and then started building up on this, right, on doing that whole thing, of doing the technology pieces, developing, talking to some of the angel investors on what is required and stuff like that. Though I think some of them, I think a lot of times people give you patient hearing and they say, "Yeah, good," right? But what I realized is while doing all this, I was actually not networking enough with a lot more people to understand or gain a lot more perspective. So being a technologist, you want to sit in your room, hack away on technology, do some work, right? Be excited about that. Maybe talk to a few people. But at the same time, if you don't collect those different perspectives, even if it is bad reviews that you get, and a lot of times I realized that criticism, the people who criticize you are your best friends because they are the ones who are actually providing you with a lot of feedback, right? The ones that actually are just giving you a good, a feel-good factor, they don't allow you to grow, right? So one thing that I realized in all that is as an entrepreneur or for that matter, as a leader, it becomes important for you to network, collaborate, talk to a lot more stakeholders to get that perspective while you're trying to tackle these problems, right? And that becomes a key part for you. And I'm sure it is just not with your peers. It is just not with the people who you report into, not your senior leaders. I think it is a 360-degree way of asking people for feedback, right, and understanding perspective. And some of the best, I would say, in my career, the best advice or the best ideas have come from people who are much younger, right? And I felt that maybe as you get, the more experience you get, you more narrow you become, right, in terms of your thought process. And the younger ones are the ones who really have the great ideas, so to speak. But I would say the one big thing is this whole thing around networking and getting feedback in whatever you're doing is important because that gives you a lot of perspective in a 360-degree way, right?

(Joel Beasley at 00:42:19) Yeah, and I think that also ties into the power of having a really diverse team as well and making sure when you're getting that 360-degree feedback, you're getting lots of different perspectives. Because as you're saying with younger people thinking differently, just you want all sorts of people thinking differently on your team so that you can really get a holistic view of whatever you're working on.

(Biju at 00:42:44) Sure.

(Joel Beasley at 00:42:44) So I want to talk a little bit about your approach to leadership and how you're doing now in your leadership role at Hexaware. So recently I was talking to this guy, Eric Newcomer. He's the CTO of a company called WSO2, and man, they're pretty cool. They make this really high-tech integration platform called Choreo that helps you with lots of different integrations. But anyway, he was talking about how it's really important to be comfortable being uncomfortable in your career, which is something you hear all the time but is still really, really impactful, I think. And so I was, it just kind of inspired me to start asking the question of how are you pushing the boundaries of where you feel comfortable today? What are you working on in that respect?

(Biju at 00:43:42) I think, see, a lot of times leadership is perceived as a position that you've gained. It is an entitlement to some privileges. In fact, today, if you look at leadership, there is this whole area around or concept around servant leadership, right? You serve the people with you, right, to achieve whatever it is. So day in, day out, as a leader, it becomes important that you demonstrate what you actually are talking about, right? So it is not that you expect people under you to do certain set of tasks and you're just sitting there, kind of asking them to do it, reviewing their work, or just giving them feedback. You need to step down and then work along with them, right? So that is one perspective that I think is very important for me, right, as a leader. So one is to work along with every other person in the group wherever possible, picking up tasks, working along with them. That is one part. The second part of it is, how do you learn newer things, right? What are the newer areas that you are actually focusing on becomes a key aspect as a leader today. So it is not that you have gained a lot of experience that is only going to serve you so much, right? What are the new areas that you are constantly working on, right? How are you imparting that knowledge? And it's about today, a lot of the work that we do across the board is one is that you learn, you impart that knowledge to other people, but you also step in and learn from them, right? So today I learn a lot more from my team where they actually impart a lot more knowledge to me. So understanding that, that the ecosystem and how that learning becomes a key dimension is the second part of it. And the third thing is, I think a lot of times people have this whole thing around fear of failure, I think, right? So what happens if I fail? And it is important as a leader to basically take that out of the equation and tell the team members that even I will fail. I mean, show that even I'm failing in a lot of things. So it's okay, right? And I'm pretty open talking to, if I do a mistake or if I have a failure, I would want to talk about it, right? And then say that that is something that the team also learns because they also then start being open about failure, right, and then moving forward, right? So some of the key things that I think as a leader in the current age that you should go about doing, right, to at least inspire your team and take them along to the next generation, right?

(Joel Beasley at 00:47:01) That's awesome. Yeah. People talk about trying to create a culture of having your employees feel comfortable sharing about their failures. But, you know, I don't think I actually hear people often say that they like sharing their own failures, which I think is just so important to creating that open culture. Because as you're talking about, you have to lead by example, obviously, and that's got to be the best way to do it.

(Joel Beasley at 00:47:32) So let's go back to early on in your career. You're moving the first time you moved from software developer to manager. What was like one of the biggest lessons you learned early on?

(Biju at 00:47:47) Right. So I know in IT services thing, you will see that most of the management part of it is about scale. You start managing more people, more projects type thing. So how much time can you kind of devote to different projects and the attention to detail that you can bring to bear, I think that was a key aspect for success, right? So one of the key things that I've learned is as you have a larger set of responsibilities, you generally tend to kind of either not spend too much time or not get into a lot of details, right? And you abstract out. So one of the key lessons for me in that whole journey from a developer to a manager is how do you go about continuing to have a level of detail and being a little bit hands-on in whatever you're doing is important for the success. Because two things, one is it also shows the developer that this person is just not a manager. He will also step in and help me do whatever, right? Development or whatever, right? So that he will come in and help. But at the same time, you also need that span, right, that you need to be able to control multiple things, right? But managing your priorities and then being a little bit detail-oriented is something that I've said is kind of important to be successful, right, moving from a developer to a manager.

(Joel Beasley at 00:49:38) Thank you so much for listening. And if you found this episode useful, please share it with a friend or colleague who you think would get value from it. And if you have topics that you'd like to hear discussed on the podcast, either add me on LinkedIn or send me an email [email protected]. Every time I get an email or LinkedIn message, it absolutely makes my day and inspires me to keep going.