The Only Marketing Channel With Longevity with Ali Fazal, VP at GRIN

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:03) Hello, my friends. Today we're talking to Ali, Vice President of Marketing at GRIN. And we discuss how companies can be leveraging influencer marketing as a channel. Why? Here, right now, on the Modern CTO Podcast. Here we go.

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:36) This is the Modern CTO Podcast.

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:47) So tell me a little bit about your background. How did you first get into technology and marketing and all the cool stuff you're doing now?

(Ali at 00:00:57) Yeah, I mean, a lot like you, I graduated with a marketing degree, but with the hopes of going into journalism. But around the time that I graduated college, the industry was not doing so great. Print, in particular, was doing really poorly at the time. And so I had the opportunity to actually go work on The Hill in DC and do marketing for the Library of Congress, which was a really cool opportunity. There's a really big rush to working somewhere that has so much history and so much legacy, and it drives a lot of importance and significance behind even the most menial stuff that you're doing. I wasn't doing anything important, but if you have to edit commas somewhere, doing it at the Library of Congress seems like a pretty good place to do it. So I started off my career there. And then around that time, the 2011, 2012 time period, was just a lot of volatility within the government.

(Ali at 00:01:53) So that was right around the time that our government started shutting down at random intervals. Unfortunately, it became more commonplace as time went on. But, you know, I decided that I needed to find something a little bit more stable and reliable. And who would have thought going from the government to a tech startup would be a journey of stability? But it really was for me.

(Ali at 00:02:15) So a friend of mine had actually worked at a startup in Silicon Valley and was like, hey, we're hiring entry-level salespeople. Is this something that you're interested in? Initially, I said no, because in my head, I had such a misapprehension about a career in sales. To me, at that time, from what I knew—it was so ignorant—I thought sales was, you know, selling phone books or selling knives door to door. And those are legitimate sales careers as well, but I had no idea what a rich opportunity for career software sales and tech sales in particular presented. So I was definitely wrong on that one, but luckily, I took the leap of faith.

(Ali at 00:02:54) I started as an entry-level salesperson, sort of worked my way up through sales management, eventually took on more and more pieces of marketing. Because I think a big thing about SaaS and tech startups is that sales and marketing are really in close lockstep. And then over my career, I was able to take on more and more of the marketing until I eventually dropped the sales off completely. That experience of going from working in the government to working in tech gave me everything that I needed. It gave me the fast-paced rush of feeling like you were doing something really important—that feeling of, you know, the work that I do here today during this ten-hour workday actually matters. And I really liked that about working for the government. There was a sense of importance and value behind what you were doing. But working in a tech startup is like that, but without all the red tape, and, you know, with snacks in the kitchen, which is nice. So yeah, that's sort of been the journey, and I've been fortunate enough to work and lead teams at six fast-paced, venture-backed startups.

(Ali at 00:03:55) So I think for better or for worse, I'm a startup guy now. You know, I never thought I would say that when I was growing up, when I was first starting out my career, but I think that is who I am.

(Joel Beasley at 00:04:07) That's really cool. Would you ever found a company?

(Ali at 00:04:10) Yeah, I've thought about this before. I mean, I think first, in order to found a company, you should have a really good idea, and I can't say that I have had one yet that I think is worth all the turmoil of being a founder. You know, especially in my most recent roles, I've worked really closely with the company's founders, and it is a tremendous amount of pressure. And I think it takes a really special kind of person. I don't know. I mean, as time goes on, it's something that I've thought about for sure, but I really love marketing so much, and I love the mix of art and science that it brings into my day-to-day that I think it would be really hard to leave that behind and focus on some of the tasks that are really important for a founder, like the business operations and the fundraising and stuff like that. So never say never, but I really enjoy being a marketing leader.

(Joel Beasley at 00:04:58) Yeah. Founders definitely typically hire someone to do marketing very early to not do it themselves. I don't know. Maybe you do the reverse—hire a fundraiser.

(Ali at 00:05:10) Yeah, you never know, right? Oh, I was just gonna say I've learned working in startups to never say never because the unexpected happens all the time. It's part of the constant chaos that in this universe we sort of live within. So yeah, I've learned better at this point to never say never.

(Joel Beasley at 00:05:27) Absolutely. So how did you meet the team at GRIN and join up? And did you join as VP of Marketing or did you rise up in the ranks?

(Ali at 00:05:37) Yeah. So it's a funny story. Two companies ago, I worked for a startup called Yotpo that started off doing customer reviews for ecommerce brands. And that's when I sort of fell in love with this direct-to-consumer ecosystem, this modern brand commerce landscape. You know, I'm always someone who has been an early adopter. I've always loved shopping online, and I thought that that was just a negative quality in my personality. I had no idea that it could actually be an asset in working for a company that's in the modern shopping space. So I worked for that company, Yotpo, and I got to meet a lot of cool people at different companies. Over the years, I got introduced to the founders of a different startup called Octane AI. They do messaging software, and they do a virtual quiz for ecommerce brands. And they have a really cool piece of technology. And I remember I was talking to them, and they actually introduced me to the people at GRIN. So ultimately, as much as ecommerce and direct-to-consumer and ecomm tech has grown, I think it still is very much a small community. And so I remember the founder of that company, his name's Ben. He told me he was like, hey, I know these guys at GRIN. They're looking for a new VP of Marketing. And because of COVID, they had recently gone remote. You know, I had settled in New York six, seven years prior to this and was like, you know, I'm not looking to leave. I really like living here.

(Ali at 00:06:58) And so GRIN used to be all local to Sacramento, but after the pandemic, they were fortunate enough to be able to open up and get talent anywhere. And so it was just sort of the perfect storm of they were looking for someone who was remote, I was remote, and it all sort of worked itself out from there.

(Joel Beasley at 00:07:21) That's awesome. So can you give me the overview of what GRIN does?

(Ali at 00:07:26) So GRIN is essentially—we're a creator management platform. So, you know, in the creator economy, we know that scaling direct creator partnerships is messy, and that's a big problem that we endeavor to solve. So at our foundation, we're a system of record for scaling creator collaborations for any brand. And so the goal is really to help brands form authentic and genuine relationships with all types of creators.

(Joel Beasley at 00:07:51) That's really cool. So influencer marketing—is that the buzzword to use?

(Ali at 00:07:59) Yeah. I mean, I think influencer marketing is one way to look at it. We do influencer marketing. That is a part of our platform. But really, within the creator economy, there are so many different types of creators. There's athletes. There's celebrities. There's influencers. There's affiliates and ambassadors. There's podcasters. And ultimately, modern brands are looking to do something a little bit different with each person, and that goes way beyond social influencers. So GRIN is really the all-in-one platform that helps brands develop relationships with all types of creators, including social influencers. So influencer marketing is one part of that. People typically will think of influencer marketing as maybe a little bit more direct response, right? Like, I will pay a creator, they will post something on their social on behalf of my brand, and as a result of that post, they'll get paid. Or they'll post a code or a link, and based on how many people use that code or link, they'll be paid. But ultimately, I think in the creator economy, the relationships between brands and creators are so much richer than that. There's so many more dimensions for opportunity, and GRIN is really the only platform on the market that's able to capture all of that.

(Joel Beasley at 00:09:03) Gotcha. So if it's not reaching out and having them create specific content or share specific content, what do the engagements typically look like?

(Ali at 00:09:14) Yeah. Good question. So, I mean, it's gone so far beyond what we really thought of with the rise of the influencer, right? So, you know, I think back to the birth of the social influencer. It was often driven by pop culture or by shows like The Bachelor and, you know, Love Island, things like that. And you had this group of people who essentially were being marketed in marketplaces. So you have these very transactional marketplaces that were working with brands and maybe peddling the same influencers to every brand regardless of what the brand was really looking for. And all of that really did was it bred inauthentic endorsement. Ultimately, what we endeavor to do is to remove that transactional element from the process, right? And so our fundamental philosophy is that really, the core of the relationship exists between the brand and the creator. And so the beauty of that is that it allows for all different types of relationships, right? So there are some brands who work with creators directly on strategy. They'll collaborate on product collections together. The founder of the brand will often work with creators on a texting basis, right? That's how close and deep these relationships can be. And it's not always just about pay-to-post, right? Some brands will work with creators whose content they really like and figure out a way to integrate the content seamlessly into the creator's sort of lifestyle. Sometimes it's not even about posting. Sometimes brands really just need good content, and they'll find creators whose aesthetic that they really admire, and they'll work together to create content. And the creator is not even posting it. It's content that'll be used on the brand's website or in their marketing materials. Then there's partnerships between brands on things like podcasts, right, that go so far beyond just one social post. Or maybe a podcast creator will work with a brand to integrate the content more seamlessly into the agenda for the show or into, you know, whatever it is that they're talking about. So there is a lot more to it than just what you think of when you think of a sponsored Instagram post. Though, you know, of course, that's a big part of the influencer landscape as well, and GRIN sort of covers that also.

(Joel Beasley at 00:11:19) Cool. So in working with creators and influencers, it sounds like a really relationship-driven marketplace. How does that scale? With other digital marketing strategies, you can just run more ads if you want to scale up your marketing, or you can send more emails for your email marketing campaign. How can you scale up influencers when it's tight-knit relationships?

(Ali at 00:11:47) Yes. That's a great question. And ultimately, that is the problem that we solve here at GRIN. And when you think of the creator landscape, the influencer landscape, it really is a marketing channel that will never be deregulated and never grow out of style because at its foundation, it's word of mouth, right? So from the earliest days of marketing, I think back to the fifties, right, and think of Mary Kay. I think of the origins of QVC. The Home Shopping Network. The reason why channels like this worked is because the one way of marketing, which is through humans, will always be effective and will always be legal. And I think that's what a lot of modern marketers are struggling with, right? It's so hard today to target people digitally. It's hard to target people via email. Consumers, especially after the pandemic, are more privacy-conscious than ever. So it's really hard to find a good audience to target if you're a brand now at scale, right? Because people don't want you to be able to find them and target them and follow them around the internet necessarily anymore. And so working with creators who own their audiences authentically is the best way around that. So ultimately, if you're a creator and whether you have a hundred followers or a million, it doesn't really matter. Those people started following you not because of the endorsements you have or the brand deals that you have. They started following you because they like your content. They relate to you in some way. They enjoy interfacing with you online. And that relationship is one that can't be replicated through digital marketing in any other way. And so ultimately, if you're advertising a product, I'm more likely to trust you because I already trusted you before. I followed you. I opted in to hearing about you and hearing your content, right? There's a stronger degree of trust that we've built as a creator and an audience member that just doesn't exist within traditional marketing channels. So to answer your question about scale, really, it's about making sure that you can find and recruit the best creators at scale, right? Really good creators don't just want to work with any brand. They want to work only with brands who they feel like they share an ethos with, they share spirit with, who they feel are authentically, you know, care about their audience. So it's about figuring out a way to, as a brand, make yourself appealing to the best influencers. It's about reaching out to them at scale with personalization, right? No one wants to dig through their DMs and look at tons of spam messages. It really is about figuring out a way to communicate with creators at scale in volume. And then it's about being able to provide them with really clear guidelines and form a true partnership of what both of you are looking for for your audiences. And so ultimately, GRIN is the platform that facilitates that journey for any brand, right? We help you find the best creators. We'll help you communicate with them at scale. We'll help you develop really solid activations based on whatever your desired shared outcomes are as a creator and as a brand. And then we help you track content. We help you facilitate payments, even tax documentation in the U.S. So really, with a platform like GRIN, you can take a channel that used to be somewhat manual, which is working with creators, and you can automate it the same way you do with other digital channels. And the distinction and the special thing that sort of sets GRIN apart is that really, working with creators is something that will always be allowed and will always be in style and will always be effective, because people—there have always been influencers and tastemakers, even if they weren't called that before. There have always been people who have these strong relationships with their audiences. And if as a brand you're able to tap into that relationship, it'll always be effective.

(Joel Beasley at 00:15:17) Yeah. That makes sense. Earlier this week, we had on a guy on the podcast named Alexander Bard, who is a very eccentric philosopher. He also has had a successful music career and is a professor of economics and just overall very interesting guy. But as a philosopher, he's written a bunch of books and studied for a long time the relationship between humans and technology. And one thing that he was bringing up is that he expects traditional advertising as we know it to kind of end as AI and algorithms get better at their job at recommending things that people want to see.

(Joel Beasley at 00:16:04) Because how can you, if you have a perfect algorithm that's recommending people things that people want to see, how can you pay to inject something that's going to grab people's attention more than that? But when you're working with creators, they're making the stuff that people want to see. And it seems like, I mean, just since that guy's ideas are on my mind, it seems like working with creators and influencers is, if he's right, that's the only mode of marketing that will survive. So yeah, all you're saying is kind of falling in line with that.

(Ali at 00:16:49) Yeah. I mean, that's a really interesting theory. I think my take is sort of that we as consumers, and we're all consumers, right? Whether you consider yourself a consumer or not, you are always consuming media.

(Ali at 00:17:02) We're always consuming social media in some form or another, even if we're not active on every network. I think as consumers, we don't actually dislike being advertised to, right? Because ultimately, you have to discover a new product some way. What we don't like is when the advertisement feels inauthentic.

(Ali at 00:17:20) And I think that the issue of authenticity is really what is fundamental to our story at GRIN, what we endeavor to help solve for the market. I think people are happy to discover new products, to discover new brands, as long as it feels part of the content that they want to engage with regularly. And so we've all suffered through seeing the pregnant influencer advertising laxative tea, right? We've all had that moment where we stopped and been like, wait, this doesn't make sense, right? Or, like, oh, that seems weird. And we've all had that moment where we've seen the Academy Award-winning actress in ads for the drugstore beauty brand. And no one even believes that that person is wearing that brand of cosmetics in the commercial that you're watching, right?

(Ali at 00:18:08) And so if you can't figure out a way to advertise beyond those basic rationalizations that we as consumers all make, you're not going to truly reach your audience in a meaningful way. And so I think that's where the creator play is really smart, because ultimately, the audience that found your creator found them before they were working with your brand, and they will be with them long after they're working with your brand, right? Ultimately, they own their audience.

(Ali at 00:18:34) And they own their audience because they're providing content that is either engaging, educational, enriching, entertaining, whatever it may be. But they own their audience because they've been able to find a special relationship that has magnetized a certain group of people. And you can't take that away from them. And so ultimately, I think what we see is that the best creators now don't want to work with brands they don't identify with, no matter what the paycheck is, because it's not worth endangering their audience with an inauthentic endorsement. So really, I think as a brand, you should focus on finding creators and building a roster of people who are genuine advocates of your brand, who genuinely love the product that you put out. Because if that's the case, the endorsement, however you want to display it, will be all the more authentic for their audience.

(Ali at 00:19:20) And that'll be a true moment of connection for the brand, the creator, and the audience.

(Joel Beasley at 00:19:25) Yeah, absolutely. So earlier when you were talking about, when we were talking about being entrepreneurial, and you said you love marketing, particularly for the science involved with it and digital marketing. Everyone's pretty aware that's a highly scientific endeavor with the statistics and all the KPIs that you're running and keeping track of everything. But how do you apply those same scientific principles to influencer marketing? What does that look like?

(Ali at 00:20:02) Yeah. I mean, look, there are some parts of influencer marketing that are just as scientific as traditional digital marketing, right? So if you work with affiliates who use codes and links, you can directly track how many of those end up converting, and you can fulfill a revenue number based on the number of people who click on the codes or links and purchase a product.

(Ali at 00:20:22) So there are elements like that that are very turnkey. But what I always try and tell people is you have to think of working with creators as more than just direct response, right? Because if you think of your own behavior as a consumer, how often is it that you see a product one time being advertised by one influencer and then you've decided to buy it? Usually, a great creator mix or a great marketing mix is built upon diversity of strategy.

(Ali at 00:20:47) And so when you think of things that go viral, think of not even a brand, but think of the ice bucket challenge, right? If you just saw one random person on your timeline pouring a bucket of water on themselves, it wouldn't have made a difference to you. But the fact that you were able to see your favorite celebrity doing it, the athlete that you grew up admiring doing it, your best friend from college doing it, your grandma doing it, the fact that all of these different people were engaging in the same thing, that's what drives true momentum in the marketplace. So when we advise brands on how they should build their creator mix, we advise them not to just think about it in terms of direct response.

(Ali at 00:21:22) There are always going to be people who will click on one post or one link and buy a product, and great, you've earned that business. But really, it's about using creators to impact every part of your marketing mix. So from awareness to education to conversion. And so when you think of the metrics that working with creators impacts, it goes so far beyond direct response, right? It's the number of followers you have. It's the depth of the relationships you have with people on social media. It's the average order value. We've seen data that people who discover a brand through a creator that they trust are more likely to buy more products and quicker.

(Ali at 00:22:00) It's more likely to decrease the time between the first and second purchase for a brand, right? Because if people have seen a creator work with a product, if they've seen them hold it, play with it, showcase it a lot on their social, they have a better idea of what they're getting. And as a result, they'll be more likely to buy more products from the brand. They'll be less likely to return, right? They're more likely to engage with the brand on social because if they discovered your brand through a creator on social, it means that they're more likely to be a socially driven consumer who will then post on their own social media, who will leave a review, who will capture user-generated content for your brand, right?

(Ali at 00:22:19) So all of these halo effect metrics are impacted by working with creators. And so I think a modern brand has to kind of assess a creator's impact on all of these different metrics.

(Joel Beasley at 00:22:45) So aside from followers, what metrics do you use to evaluate the value of a creator before working with them to ensure that they're going to do a good job promoting the brand? Because I'm sure there's lots of creators out there that are like, oh, nice, I'll get some free stuff, posted on my story, cool, and I'm done. How do you evaluate and make sure you're getting quality people on board?

(Ali at 00:23:19) Yeah, great question. I mean, I think followers is one way to look at it. But again, I think in the modern brand's creator mix, you're working with creators of all different types, sizes, with different audience breakdowns. And I think that's really important.

(Ali at 00:23:34) So a lot of people are all about the followers. I think you really have to look a little bit beyond that because ultimately, think of the relationship that you have with a creator like a Serena Williams who has 10 million followers. You probably have a slightly different level of relationship with a creator like that than maybe you have with a creator who you had discovered online, who has a very similar lifestyle to you, who has maybe a thousand followers, right? So I think it's all about diversifying and thinking beyond just the follower number.

(Ali at 00:24:02) The other thing to look at is the engagement rate of the creator. Like, are they engaging with their audience? Do they seem to have really strong, authentic, deep relationships with the people who follow them? Are they creating content that's engaging for their audience? And then the last thing I would look at is to assess whether the content they're creating is going to work for you and your brand, right?

(Ali at 00:24:22) Not all creators are built equal, and not all creators are a good fit for every brand. And so really, I think a smart modern brand finds those creators who already seem like they could be employees of your brand. You know what I mean? Like, they live the same lifestyle. They live the same aesthetic. They, philosophically, seem really aligned with what you're trying to accomplish as a brand. So if you're a sustainability-focused brand, really look for people who talk the talk and walk the walk on their social, and you're much more likely to find a good long-term partner.

(Ali at 00:24:38) If you're a sustainability-focused brand and you just pick at random someone who has 10 million followers without vetting the content they produce, the relationship they have with their audience, what matters to them, what passion projects they care about, you're much more likely to create an inauthentic endorsement. That's not going to work for the creator, and it's not going to work for your audience.

(Joel Beasley at 00:25:12) Yeah. And I think sustainability-focused brands in particular also would carry risk working with someone that might behave in a way that is not appreciated by the sustainability brand's audience.

(Ali at 00:25:30) Sure. Yeah. I mean, brand safety is huge. It's a big concern in the creator economy. You know, it's something that we focus a lot on within our platform is helping brands attain brand safety through a lot of the different tools that we offer.

(Ali at 00:25:46) But I think when you think about the stakes for a brand in the creator economy, they're super high, right? Because it used to be you could control the entire process of what people thought about your brand completely in-house, right? You control the website. You control the photo shoots. You hire each model specifically. You know exactly every single word that is leaving the warehouse, right? You pick the packaging.

(Ali at 00:26:11) And you can still do all of that, but ultimately, your product is going to be in the hands of people out there in the world. They're going to hashtag. They're going to tag you. They're going to tag the product on social. They're going to leave reviews. They're going to post their own photos with your product, and you have no control over that. So ultimately, as a brand, the stakes are really high, and that's why partnering with the right creators is super important. It's not a thought that you can just do as an afterthought. It's not an endeavor that you can do in a rush. It's something that is super important and that you should invest time, money, and resources into making sure that you have the right creator roster.

(Joel Beasley at 00:26:46) Yeah, absolutely. I'm actually in this conversation, I'm thinking of, have you heard of the YouTuber Internet Historian? He's very not professional. He makes these super fried, all over the place, like acid trip of videos about big events that happen on the internet. If you remember the in 2019, Area 51 raid, Facebook event that went viral.

(Joel Beasley at 00:27:20) So he'll cover silly stuff that happens like that. And NordVPN sponsors this guy, and you can tell he has complete creative control because the NordVPN ads on his videos are just wild. And like I said, his videos are like acid trips of videos. And as a result, like, I—

(Ali at 00:27:45) I think that's the way to do it, right?

(Joel Beasley at 00:27:47) Yeah. I really enjoy what he does with the NordVPN ad, which is not a brand that I'm particularly, have any feelings about at all. You know? I don't even use a VPN personally. But I mean, I, now after that, I respect them. I'm like, nice. Good on you trusting this guy and making a fun thing that, I mean, if I get a VPN, it'd probably be that one after that.

(Ali at 00:28:17) And think about it. The brands that have lived and have really survived and thrived in the social era are ones who have figured out that a modern creator is so much more than just a photo, right? So if you think of the brands like the Skims, the Warby Parkers, the Allbirds, Maejuries, they really integrate into the daily lives of these creators in the way that you're talking about. And that's so important because we, as consumers, look to creators for so much more than we used to, right?

(Ali at 00:28:43) Maybe 10 years ago, creators were just photos, right? Static photos. And so that's when it became all about Photoshopping, you know, really a lot of control around the brand image. But now, we look to creators for so much more. I would say so much of my TikTok For You page is educational content, right? Or I'm learning stuff about marketing trends or about history. We look to creators for comedy now, right? All standup comedians now, instead of getting their break on The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon, they're getting their break on social media. This is how we're discovering new musicians and artists, right?

(Ali at 00:29:09) In order to be a successful athlete today, many people say that in order to drive a lot of traction and public awareness around you as an athlete, you either have to be in the top 1% of performers or you have to be a really good creator who has an engaged audience.

(Ali at 00:29:33) So ultimately, the way that you think of a creator in 2022 is so different than we used to, and that means that there has to be an adaptation in the type of content that they produce. So the best brands will let creators kind of do their thing. You know, they'll give some guidelines. They'll give some rough land posts of what they're looking for. But really, they let the creator do what they do best, which is create engaging content, which is how they got the audience that you're after in the first place.

(Ali at 00:30:02) It's because they created content that worked. And so by trying to overly manufacture the type of content that a creator makes, I think you're missing out on what you're really seeking in that creator in the first place, which is the unique relationship with their audience.

(Joel Beasley at 00:30:15) Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. So I do want to get into a little bit of, so obviously, marketing strategies are super useful to founders and people in charge of running their businesses. And that's why I was really excited to have you on for our audience, because we have a lot of founders that listen. But I also want to talk a little bit to the general IT and tech people that we have listening. So throughout your career in marketing, how have you interacted with the IT functions at your various businesses throughout your career? And how do you think IT and marketing can work better together?

(Ali at 00:31:01) Yeah. That's a great question. I think, you know, I've been fortunate in my career. I've always been in really lockstep with my partner on the IT side. And I think the reason why is because modern marketing, particularly B2B marketing, is all about technology, right? And it's all about innovation and moving as fast as you possibly can. So every day, my team is trying new channels, trying new softwares, figuring out ways to innovate faster than the competition. That's really the name of the game. And in order to be able to innovate fast and drive results, you need to have a really strong partnership with IT.

(Ali at 00:31:34) Because ultimately, you want to make sure that you're building processes in the right way. You want to make sure that your data privacy and compliance is on lock. As a marketing leader, you really want to be able to let your team run free, try new things, experiment, innovate really quickly, iterate really quickly. And the best way to do that is to make sure that you have partnership and alignment on the IT side. Because ultimately, none of the 80 softwares we use every single day just to do the basics of B2B marketing—it's not possible to operate at peak efficiency unless you have buy-in from IT.

(Joel Beasley at 00:32:08) So how do you craft the culture of your company? What are the culture items that are important to being able to move so quickly like that?

(Ali at 00:32:18) I think you have to bake it into the DNA of your company. So one of our values at GRIN is move fast, take action. And so our CEO, Brandon, always gives this example of, look, let's say anybody at the company has a deadline looming, right? And it's a Thursday, and they know that their boss is out of town. They won't be able to get in touch with them till Monday. His take is always, like, I'd much rather you move forward with the information that you have right now, even if it could end up being a mistake, than be overly cautious and wait and lose that 72 hours. And so really, that's a lesson that we all throughout the company really embody and take to heart. I think moving fast is so much more than just making rash decisions.

(Ali at 00:33:04) Like, we of course use data. We inform all of our major decision-making with data. But I think moving fast is really something that you have to practice every single day and be a little fearless, be willing to take risks, and you have to create a company culture that allows for that. You know, the other thing that I always tell all of my teams is to reserve 10% of their time always for innovation. So when you're building your calendar out of what your big rocks are for the quarter, what other projects you're working on, make sure that you reserve that 10% of the time for innovation.

(Ali at 00:33:37) Because ultimately, it's really easy to get stuck in the rut of doing the same things in the same way, especially if they're working all right and if they're successful. I think oftentimes the adage is, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But I think ultimately, that's really how you fall behind. Because if you're just maintaining, you're already behind in the modern world of B2B marketing. So I encourage everybody on my team to, even if something is working fine, see if there's ways that we can innovate it, take a leap forward, do it faster, do it better, do it bigger.

(Ali at 00:34:07) And ultimately, you have to really give people the freedom to reserve that time for innovation. So take as many demos as you can of new softwares. Do research. Talk to peers at fellow companies. Figure out a way to get that competitive edge of innovation, because ultimately, that's something that no one can ever compete with us on.

(Joel Beasley at 00:34:27) I like that a lot. I'm probably going to take that 10% on innovation and apply it with my teams. Because we, in podcast production world, do a lot of—we create a lot of templates and assets to use for all the shows we produce. And about quarterly—or we actually don't have a decided sequence, but now you're making me think that I really want to have this a lot more deliberate—but go in and revamp all of our templates, even for the same shows. It may just make them look different, make them look new, make them look better than the competition in some way if we're keeping a finger on the pulse of what other people are doing. But I like how you're intentional about it.

(Ali at 00:35:16) Yeah. I mean, I'm a firm believer that if you hire great people, right, they will continue to evolve as the job goes. I think I'm so much stronger as a marketing leader than I was when I started at GRIN, even a year ago. And so I think if I'm working off of some legacy process that I developed 12 months ago, it's like I'm smarter now. I have more context now. I'm faster now. And so if I approach even the same document with the eyes that I have now, I hopefully will be able to bring something new and fresh to it. So I think it's good to automate a lot of parts of your process, right, so that you're not repeating the same things over and over. But to your point, who goes back and looks at the templates, right, to make sure that they are still as up-to-date or as innovative as they could be, to make sure that nothing is missing, to make sure that they're updated with today's context? I think making sure that your team has the time to do that is critical.

(Joel Beasley at 00:36:10) Yeah, absolutely. So I have one more question for you because I always like asking this one. So looking at your career, it looks like when you're at the Library of Congress, you're doing individual contributor kind of work on the marketing team, like actually making stuff. Correct?

(Ali at 00:36:28) Mm-hmm.

(Joel Beasley at 00:36:29) So when you first moved from individual contributor to management, which is a reason a lot of people listen to this podcast because they've been an engineer for a long time and now they're dealing with people—what's one thing that you wish you would have known or a piece of advice you would have given yourself first time stepping away from the hands-on roles?

(Ali at 00:36:54) Yeah. I mean, that's a great question. I think the advice that I would give is, for a long time, I think I held on to this idea that a leader has to be a certain way and has to operate in a certain way and talk a certain way and lead meetings a certain way. And I think the beauty to being successful as a leader is really leaning into the parts of you that are unique. And I think that's what people want to work for, right? And that's what gets people to actually relate to you—being vulnerable, being open, sharing a little bit of yourself with your team. I think that goes a long way. Beyond that, I think when you are thinking about the journey into leadership, it's really important to figure out a way to communicate with all different types of people. Because ultimately, as a leader, it's your job to mold and adapt to all the different types of people who will be in your reporting line, right? And you can't make them conform and adapt to you. It's on you as the leader to really adapt, shift your style, shift your communication strategy, shift the way that you speak, shift the way that you goal-set with different types of people. And so really, when you're—I operate under a servant leadership mindset of, I really do think that my number one way I can add contribution to the business is by removing obstacles from my team's way and then letting them run free and do what they do best. If you approach your job not as controlling people or dictating what they do, but if you think of it more bottoms-up as being the person who's there to catch whatever they can't handle and just remove obstacles from their way, I think you'll end up creating a team culture that is much more supportive, much more autonomous, much more independent. And then it'll give you the freedom to be able to really lean into the places where you need to.

(Joel Beasley at 00:38:44) So when you're working with new people, do you have any tips for evaluating kind of who they are and how you need to mold yourself to best serve them?

(Ali at 00:38:56) I think it's about having really honest, authentic, and maybe even vulnerable or uncomfortable conversations right at the beginning, right? Because it's easy to kind of—when you start a new working relationship with anyone, it's easy to kind of go through the motions. Everybody's very polite with each other. You know, nobody wants to really tell the truth. And it's easy to just get sucked into this model. And then before you know it, conflicts start popping up because you never took the time to really establish a baseline with each other. So I always try to ask someone new who's reporting to me, or even someone who I'm reporting to, I always try to ask, like, okay, what are the things that absolutely drive you crazy? What are your deal breakers? What are the things that, you know, may seem small but are really important to you? You know, what are the things that you have trouble with that you're often maybe embarrassed to admit or you find a little too vulnerable to admit? Like, how can I support you in times where you seem really stressed? How can I support you in times where you seem like you're on top of the world, right? And really gaining a baseline for who they are as people and how they operate in different modes. I think if you can have those honest conversations in the beginning—sure, no, nobody's going to spill their guts to you day one. That's like, most of us don't feel comfortable doing that. But if you lay that foundation as a manager that, hey, I'm really interested in learning more about how you operate, I'm really interested in learning about how you feel, about your emotions, about how you process different things, people will feel more comfortable bringing that to you later on. Whereas if you start the relationship with the, okay, let's go. Here's what we're going to do. Got it. Check. All right. Let's move. You've never given that person time to open up to you, to share things with you, share vulnerabilities with you. And as a result, you're probably not being as supportive of them as you need to be. So yeah, I think from my perspective, I try and lead with being vulnerable myself and sharing, you know, the areas that I feel concerned about or areas where I think I want to improve or things that I know that I could handle better. And I hope that the people on my team will sort of take that cue and lead that way as well.

(Joel Beasley at 00:40:59) That's amazing. Yeah. That just makes a lot of sense. I'm definitely going to be implementing some of the stuff that you're telling me about today.

(Ali at 00:41:09) I mean, yeah, that's kind of—I think the relationship with management has changed a lot too, right? Like, it's now an employee's market. You can go wherever you want, and I think really great people, and that's the goal always, is to hire really great people—have a million different places they could work every single day, right? They have so many options. And so ultimately, I think people just want to be in a place that they feel psychological safety in. And so if you think of your job as a manager not to control their workflow or make sure that they're on task or make sure that they're getting X, Y, and Z done, if you just hire good people and make sure that they feel psychologically safe at work, you will probably end up yielding the results that you need to be successful.

(Joel Beasley at 00:41:51) That makes a lot of sense. And the other thing that I would add that I'm learning a lot is just providing lots of good feedback as soon as you have it. As like, as soon as you think of something that's like, oh, this could be a little better, just shoot a message. Just do it. Get it out. Make sure that they know what's going on, how they can improve. Because yeah, I noticed myself, one of the things that I work on for myself is I have a tendency to just kind of not say anything. And that is not an option as a leader. You definitely have to be better about that. And I think that that's a problem that a lot of individual contributor types of people can have when they move up to management. And that's just like an improving your communication skills thing.

(Ali at 00:42:46) Yeah. Someone told me once that as a leader, you have this big responsibility because you've become part of someone else's dinner conversation, right? So when someone goes home—goes home virtually, right, like goes to a different room—and is eating dinner with their family, you know, the way that you treated them that day and the interactions that you had are likely to come up. And if you don't take that responsibility seriously and you don't really invest in making sure that your employees are having a great experience working with you, and if you're just someone who's like, my way or the highway, or like, this is how it's got to be all the time, I think that's what gets people to burn out and, you know, answer that one LinkedIn message from a recruiter, right, and possibly go somewhere else. It's those moments. So I try and always just think of the privilege that all of us as leaders have, which is that we have the ability to really shape and guide the careers of other people and the directions of our companies. And it's about being humble and really remembering that responsibility every day is first and foremost.

(Joel Beasley at 00:43:51) Yep. Yeah. The old ways don't work anymore. No my way or the highway, for sure. But is there anything that you want to get out to the world that we didn't get to touch on yet so far in our conversation?

(Ali at 00:44:03) No. I mean, I really enjoyed this. I think the only thing I would say is, as you're thinking about the year ahead and as you're working on your marketing strategy, or as you're working with your partner who's working on marketing strategy internally at your company, really think about what you want to focus on. And if driving authentic relationships with consumers is a big focus for you, I think don't discount creator, because working with creators is a great way to develop those relationships at scale.

(Joel Beasley at 00:44:39) Thank you so much for listening. And if you found this episode useful, please share it with a friend or colleague who you think would get value from it. And if you have topics that you'd like to hear discussed on the podcast, either add me on LinkedIn or send me an email, [email protected]. Every time I get an email or LinkedIn message, it absolutely makes my day and inspires me to keep going.