David Reger - CEO at Neura Robotics

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:00) Hello, my friends. Today we are talking to David, the CEO at Neura Robotics, and we discuss his vision of using robotics to make the world a better place, how this will be achieved using their advanced collaborative robots, and why having love and passion for your mission will allow you to achieve anything that you set out to do. All of this right here, right now on the Modern CTO Podcast. Here we go.

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:28) This is the Modern CTO Podcast. So excited. Last time I was talking with the CTO over there, Hendrik, correct? That's his name?

(David at 00:00:45) Yes, man.

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:46) He was awesome. And we were talking about cobots, and he was explaining all of that to me. But when we had talked, you guys had just had your conference. It was Future Days conference. How did that go?

(David at 00:00:58) Amazing, actually. So we presented all the new products which we were hiding for almost two years. And yeah, it was a reveal of something we have done in the past. And before, nobody was allowed actually to even mention anything. So that was actually great. Yeah, it was an amazing day. And we had also amazing feedback, I think, until now. Just good feedback. So I think we made a great job.

(Joel Beasley at 00:01:28) And did you completely transition the name to Neura Robotics now? Where's that at? So how did you first get into robotics?

(David at 00:01:38) Yeah, I just somehow got thrown in. So I did not study robotics actually. So I was actually far away from robots. Actually, even when I started to design the first robot, it was in a Swiss company which was actually building all kinds of other machines, like metal cutting machines. And yeah, the senior boss there wanted to do something more exciting. So he was thinking about doing like 3D printing machines or robots. One of these two things he wanted to do. So this is why he hired two persons for it, and I was one of them. So I never saw a robot before. I mean, I probably saw one, but I never touched one before. And there I had to design one. So yeah, that's how I got in touch with it. I just designed one. And then, yeah, but we did a great job. Like eleven months later, we designed actually not just a cobot. We also designed an industrial robot, and we did it in a time I think nobody else would ever do it because we did not know that it should take longer. So that's how I got in touch with robots. And this time I got in love with robots. So I started to research to see what's actually on the market, what's the gap, and that's how we started.

(Joel Beasley at 00:02:55) What was the purpose or the task that your first robot accomplished?

(David at 00:03:00) We firstly made a smart cobot for assembly tasks, like something to put parts in each other with a sense of feeling. It was actually, so we had torque sensors inside, and that's how we actually started. And later, we did not really even think about for what exactly. We just started to do a cobot which is better than the others on the market because the era of cobots just started. So a robot which is working together with humans, and there was just two others and we were the third. And yeah, that's how we did it, actually. There was not much explanation, actually. It was just a question about do we do robots or 3D printers? And we decided to do robots because I believe even robots can do 3D printing one day. So that's why, yeah, that's actually why and how. And later we found all kinds of applications, started with just standard picking and placing autonomously, and then later more advanced, like with the sense of feeling. And I think in a very short time we did a great job. And many companies, the first time when we presented, actually many companies came after us and tried to buy this company, but we were not able to. The boss of the company was 70 years old, so it was his hobby. He was not really looking for more money. He was more looking for something changing the world, doing something crazy, and having a footprint somewhere in the world. And that's how we started. So it was ambitious, but also a cool dream of him. And that's how we started. So I dreamed actually with him, his dream, and later made my own dream out of it. And that's actually how everything started.

(Joel Beasley at 00:04:53) That's amazing. So you get your experience building these first robots. And then how did you come into Hansrobot?

(David at 00:05:01) Actually, yeah, so I was about seven years before I started doing robots, and then I was running actually about three companies. So one is actually also a 3D printing company, later also a robotics company. And I love the products we did. We did the most accurate robot in the world. We did super sensitive robots. We did really cool things in a very short time. Really, everybody loved our products, but the issue was more in the management. We were two persons which were leading this company, and we did not have exactly the same vision and not exactly the same dream about, I was always dreaming about something which is more than just industrial robots. Something which is really able to assist me in any way, or something which can even help in some social issues, like in society. But for that, I thought robots have to be smaller. Robots have to have more senses, more abilities, to know the environment and also interact with the environment. And that's how actually I was looking for some investors for it. So because I decided to leave the other company even though I had a great time there. And so I was looking for some investor and had some great investors from Asia. And then started also to build a team out of it. And that's how I actually also asked Henrik about if he wants to join a crazy new startup which is doing things which is not possible to the others. And yeah, so I was one of the founders of the company. So it was actually my dream came true. So I found the right investor, found the right team. So we started with 14 people on the first day. That was the crazy thing. Because the people were still in safe jobs. They had amazing jobs at Airbus or in other top companies here. And they all left the companies before even having a contract because they just trusted me because I promised them I will find an investor. I promised them that we will do something what just we want to do, not somebody telling us what to do. It's something which is crazy. And yeah, that's how we started. 14 people in this room, actually. And until now, I'm super happy about this decision. I think maybe later I can even show you some products. It's cool what we did in a very short time.

(Joel Beasley at 00:07:24) You are my type of people, my friend. That's how our company is over here. We just dream of stuff and then go make it happen. And it's hard too because you have to find the right people that can see the future with you, and then you have to just keep going and persist when things get difficult. So yeah, I love it. In your profile, you were talking about, and you were just talking about it a little bit there, but revolutionizing the robotics industry, right? But one phrase caught my attention. You said revolutionize the robotics industry in the shortest amount of time possible. So what's your perspective there?

(David at 00:08:06) Yes. So most people, always when I was talking to investors, they always said, "Hey, come on, man. You're a little crazy. So maybe we just do step by step," and things like that. Everybody, especially here in Germany, they're very concentrated. But in there I have a really clear vision. And I actually have not just a vision. It's also an idea of how it should be and how it should look like. So this is why even in the first day when we started here in this room, I was talking about the vision and about what we are doing. I think most were even thinking again, "Oh my God, what did I do? I joined someone who's crazy." But I think today we look back and we did even more. And that's actually the amazing thing. That's like we want to make a robot feel. We want to make a robot see, hear, and even one day smell. And that's actually an ambitious dream, but there's already a lot of things already in the market. We just don't see it. Or I mean, we are talking to our smartphone, so that's how we can also talk to our robot. So the cameras today, the drones and everything, there's many abilities with it. We can scan rooms. We can do things already, but they're not in your robot until now. So this is why it was nothing like a crazy new development. It's more about putting things together which are already there. So this is why we made it actually also until now in a very short time. So also getting the best people together was the most important thing, I think. We got the head of the biggest AI project in Europe. He's leading our AI group. We have our CTO. He was doing with me together before the most accurate robots. We did big machines, even robots which were mobile and were milling big parts of airplanes, which everybody was saying is impossible because the accuracy is not there and whatever. We made it possible because we were just thinking differently. And then we have every kind of decision, in control, we have people which make control, but they always dreamed about something better, maybe faster controlling, maybe different, maybe with some new neural networks to make it even smarter in the future, make it more accurate even over time, and things like that. So there were always people that had dreams, but they were never allowed to make them happen. And that was actually our company. This is our company, actually. We let the people just make their own dreams happen, and that's why we're so fast. So they, and because everybody of them wants to make it as fast as possible and everybody wouldn't just bring their feature as fast as possible to market. So this is why we are also saying we are the first and actually the only commercialized cognitive robot, not just cobot. So we have really a robot, and I can show you maybe later something. It's private because I can't publish it. But we have already a product which is actually exactly doing that what I'm telling. So we have something which feels, sees, hears, and even interacts with us in a natural way, and that's actually the amazing part.

(Joel Beasley at 00:11:15) That is so cool. I was telling Hendrik I want a cobot to be in my house, and then I can program it. And maybe I put on some gloves and I show it how to undo the dishwasher or something, and then it learns how to do that. You know, that's specific to my kitchen and my dishes because I'm programming it the first couple times. But I think in the future, I just see we will have this robot at home that will assist us in these various mundane tasks.

(David at 00:11:45) Yes. I think very soon, actually. That's why we're doing step by step, like Elon Musk does also. He's talking about going to Mars. In reality, he was flying to ISS. It's cool. It's already, but it's one step. And so that's why the people are freaking out about him. And that's actually the same for us. We are doing step by step. So we are doing first the robot arm which is able to do all these tasks by itself. So it's just an arm. But the next ambitious goal for us is actually having something which is even maybe looking a little bit more similar like a human, having arms, having legs to go everywhere. Because until now it's more like arms. You can put two arms together, and then they're able to do many cool things, even like dishwasher. But here, actually, that's the approach of us, is not even having a kind of programming. It's more about learning from humans. So it means seeing a human, seeing what a human does by following our fingers and also following exactly what we're doing and then just trying to repeat. And that's actually the learning process, and the AI enables the robot to be smarter and faster to program. Because until now, why there is no robots in your home? Very simple. Because it's too complicated. It's not possible. It's too expensive. And that's why we believe with the new era of robots, cognitive robots, we will be able to do that. Because everybody is going to use them in any kind of industries and fields, homes, kitchens, restaurants, in hospitals. I mean, that enables many new things, and that's actually our goal also.

(Joel Beasley at 00:13:22) You're like the Elon Musk of robots because that position is open, right? He's got space and batteries and electric vehicles, but you're gonna be like the Elon Musk of robotics.

(David at 00:13:33) Would be my dream, yes. I mean, it's a way to make something possible which is not possible until now. And I think we did a great job, and we have the potential now because there I can guarantee, actually, there's no robot right now in the market, even available, which has all the abilities we have. And that's crazy. And if you want, we can really do one time, I can go through our labs and you can see some crazy things, like our robot, the future of even going shopping. I mean, our robot can just scan the environment and detect any kind of objects, any kind of things. It will just detect and also recognize them and right away also be able to grasp them without telling them how. You know? So because it just looks like how the part looks like and then just makes its own decisions, and that's actually the cool thing. And that makes, also, when the people come here the first time, they always freak out and say, "Wow, how did you do it?" Because they bring something which they have in their pocket and put there on the table, and the robot somehow grasps it on its own without having anything programmed. And that's actually a cool thing.

(Joel Beasley at 00:14:38) It's amazing the similarities between humans and technology. It's almost as if we are super advanced organic robots that just reset everything, and now we're just discovering ourselves slowly over again.

(David at 00:14:52) That's the funny part of it. I just hope that, I mean, the people are always talking about they're scared of robots getting smarter or AI gets smarter than humans. I don't think so. I still think it's in our hands, and they could maybe do many kind of tasks. But I would say we should always let them just be our assistant. That's actually why we create them. We don't create a better human because there is no possibility for that because we are the best creation I think in the world. But we need something which is maybe making our life a little bit easier, maybe something which makes it more comfortable, maybe more fun. And also, I mean, even there, we have also ambitious thinking about dreams and also vision about having even political changes through robotics and also getting social jobs that are paid or things like that through robotics. Because one day we'll have to start taxing robots. One day we'll have somehow to find a way where the flow back of money comes from, not just to these people which automate it and not just the robotic company, but also to the whole folks. And that's actually the next thinking we have to already start and already talk about because the politicians have to make a change. If not, there will be a very big gap like everybody's talking about. I don't want to scare anybody, so it is not for sure not something they take all over the jobs because there's still also new jobs created, like the Internet also. Everybody was scared, but it changed just the kind of jobs.

(David at 00:16:25) And robotics will change. It will be a very big, major change in the whole world. And I think there we have already started thinking about how to close the gap, you know, how to let all these people also profit which are actually losing their jobs and maybe have to get retrained for other kinds of jobs, maybe more social, because I think that's what the future will look like. People will have to be more social and maybe better paid, maybe, or having different kinds of jobs and maybe easier jobs.

(David at 00:16:58) Like, even if they will change the jobs, like in older people's homes. They sound not so attractive, the jobs. But I think with robotics, we can actually make them attractive to both sides. Even to the people which are living there, the older people. Maybe the robots can do the tasks which humans were never comfortable with. I think you know what I'm talking about, and maybe also for both sides. And I think we will find some win-win situation. But for that, also, there will be for sure some changes, political changes, and we have to think about taxing robots, making maybe somehow a flow back of money to make other jobs maybe more attractive again.

(Joel Beasley at 00:17:39) Are governments talking about this? Is there like a group of people developing policy on robotics?

(David at 00:17:48) Until now, not. Actually, I was in a political, like, group for industrial group. But for sure there, the interest is different because if you're now starting taxing robots, there will be also less people buying robots maybe now, you know, because they maybe have to be first convinced by having a robot there, having good experience with it, and then later maybe start a tax. And so I'm actually just starting now, really a little bit earlier, because I really think that the new kind of robotics will even have an advantage even in attacks. Because somehow we have to find a way or a flow back of the good which people have when they just automate everything.

(David at 00:18:30) I mean, they will be everywhere—restaurants, hospitals. They will be everywhere and making our lives easier, but also will take some jobs away. And there, I think, for sure, there have to be some changes, and we are also going to work on and also make some new, bringing some new examples maybe, and some possibilities to how it could look like in the future.

(Joel Beasley at 00:18:53) Yeah. You've got my mind thinking a lot right now. So, for example, like I'm thinking about this tax issue or this conversation, and I was thinking about myself as a programmer, and I was going more philosophical here. So if I have this job, right, like I'm working this job, like nine to five, and I'm engineering, and I happen to write this automation that takes my job from nine hours to thirty minutes, right, or just completely gets rid of the need for my position at this, and then I just take on new responsibilities. Did that automation technically get rid of a job in a bad way, or did it provide a convenience to everyone? Like, did it amplify my capacity?

(Joel Beasley at 00:19:40) It's a—there's a lot of different ways to think about it.

(David at 00:19:44) I think both. So it will, for sure, first of all, I think right now it should give just more capacity and also make our lives first easier. I think it's the first step of automation. That we should not just think like everything is sunny and nice. I think there will be always people taking advantage of it or to save some money, for sure. It's always like that.

(David at 00:20:07) And that's why I think it will not even be like something which really takes our jobs away and we are all people who are living on the street, like many movies are showing. I'm sure it's not, because there will be, somehow, service of robots. There will be programming of robots. There will be many kinds of new jobs developed. But, for sure, there is—like, one day it will, because we are producing more and more robots, so they go somewhere. Right now we have a gap, so because right now of the civil society, I think we even need to have these robots closing this gap because there's, I mean, more older people than younger people are coming after. And also there is how do we pay them the retirement and everything. Like, how does it go? So this is why for now I think we should not think about it as an issue for us. It's something which helps us and makes maybe the stressful life which we have right now maybe a little bit more calm. But I think when we're looking a little bit even farther forward, there will come some time where they really take all the jobs which makes our life also more comfortable.

(David at 00:21:15) But there's still people which are losing their jobs. And I think there it will be change of jobs. So not losing. Sorry. It's about the changing of jobs. So we have to retrain them for other things. We have to somehow get them maybe all in social, because there I don't see robots at all. And I'm really not a fan of it, because having a robot solving our social issues or mental issues or whatever. So I think there will always be a human, and I hope it will always be a human.

(David at 00:21:42) And because that's actually the thing—the robot should be just a tool of making our lives easier, happier, and the humans should actually care about humans. And also, like, maybe being more social again, having more time for each other, having maybe shorter time of working, like, and things like that. So that's actually—and getting better payment, actually, in jobs which are now like a social job. They're really underpaid right now. So even here, you see, like now during COVID, there's a lack of social workers, people in hospitals like nurses or even doctors. I mean, and this lack, we cannot just close right now with the robots. I think it will take some time. This lack we should actually close maybe with better payment, like, better environment of these jobs.

(David at 00:22:34) And that's actually, I think, also possible through taxing robots, having flow back somehow, and somehow make these jobs which are meant for humans, actually, the social jobs, make them more attractive. So I hope I did not talk too much around it.

(Joel Beasley at 00:22:48) Oh, no. You've got me all excited here. Because I hear you with the taxing and the flow back, and I love the fact that the nature of our reality is the government and laws lag far behind the economy and what actually happens typically. So they kind of come in late after the fact. So this is like a conversation we're having about like 2101 or something.

(Joel Beasley at 00:23:10) Right? But I wanted to run a thought experiment. So let's say that we wake up—like, let's take it to an extreme to have some fun with it. Let's say Hans' robot, or Neura Robotics, they make this robot amazing. It comes out and can make itself self-assemble.

(Joel Beasley at 00:23:28) And in ninety days, all the jobs in the world are learned and automated by these robots. Right? Well, the nature of how, like, commerce and economics, like how it works, is it's an exchange of value between people, and those people agree upon the value as a collective. Like, our money doesn't mean much to the bears in the forest. Right?

(Joel Beasley at 00:23:52) So all of a sudden, we would start valuing things differently, which would create just a mass change in what jobs look like. Right? Because let's say that we all happen to value art and singing. Right? Well, now the same programmers that said to the truckers "learn to program" are being told by the vocalists "learn to sing or paint," or the artists "learn to paint."

(Joel Beasley at 00:24:18) Right? We have to adapt, but at the same time as a collection of people, we agree to what the things are that we value, and then we exchange within that agreement. So I think no matter what, we're going to be okay, but that doesn't mean there's not going to be difficult moments, because those transitionary periods where we take a segment of a market and we completely automate it within a business year or two, and all of those people have this very difficult moment and have to transition. There will be a lot of pain along the way.

(Joel Beasley at 00:24:51) But, I mean, pain and growth are tied permanently. Right?

(David at 00:24:57) So I don't want to scare anybody. So it will be, for sure—it would be wrong from my side, I think, to scare people. I think, for sure, we have to more concentrate on the positive things. Because I'm just talking about the way that the politicians have to start one day to really make this change and also think about it. But I think the automation, firstly, will bring a very positive impact. And that's actually why I'm doing it. Alright? Because I think I'm a social guy, so my focus—like, even the first years, I'm coming out of this field. Alright. I'm an engineer, but I also, like, in mechanical. So I'm coming out of that, more in the automotive industry. Something social, doing like working with people on the streets, working with—and so that's why my, like, the whole purpose I see in robots, actually, is about bringing these two things together or something social and something which will bring a very big and positive impact to the world about solving big social issues. And that's actually the civil society. And there's also many other issues in the future.

(David at 00:26:01) But I think the major one is the civil society, which is a gap right now. We need people which we don't have actually. And many governments try to solve it in their own ways. And but I think here is robotics, for sure, a solution for it. And that's actually why we are doing robots. But for sure, my thinking is always already even the step after. What happens then? So this is why I'm trying to also warn and also trying to—for sure I will work on it. That never happens, or that my robots, I will never bring us actually a negative impact. That is actually, for sure, my purpose in life.

(David at 00:26:39) But for sure, I think I'm always trying to already tell that we have to start thinking about it. And maybe after this conversation, somebody will have even a better idea, and I hope so. And that's actually what I'm trying to also achieve with this. Also, sometimes it sounds like a negative thing, but it's definitely not. Like, I'm not scared of it, and I would not do it if it would be bad for us.

(Joel Beasley at 00:27:03) Oh, yeah. I agree. I'm curious to know—how do you choose what you name the robots? Do you and Hendrik have a drinking competition? Like, how do you decide what you get to name the robots?

(David at 00:27:17) Actually, we decided right now—first, we always write things down, like what's in the robot. So it means, like, MIRA is more like Multi-Sensing Intelligent Robotic Assistant. Alright? That's the name. So we have some words, and then we put, trying to put them together, and get like a name of it. So this is how we start. Mostly, yes, Hendrik is the guy which actually puts all the words together later. He sends like a big list of many names, and we try to figure out some. And then somehow we decide for maybe two, three of them, and then send them in the group.

(David at 00:27:51) And that's how we actually decided for MIRA. Also, that's how we decided for LARA. But for MAV, actually, it's cool because we have actually our software guy. It's like a guy which actually is on my side for a long time. Like, even from the beginning of robotics when I started, he was the first developer I hired, actually.

(David at 00:28:11) And he was an amazing character. And he is also even in this company here. He's the head of software, and he is an amazing character. Everybody loves him. So that's why we named actually the robot MAV, because of him, and because it fits also even like the Mobile Autonomous Vehicle, or like—it's actually a mobile robot. And that's how we—so it depends, actually, I think.

(David at 00:28:34) But mostly we decide in one day. So we never sleep over it, whatever. We just have some names, and then we decide really quick, and I think they're good until now. I hope you like them.

(Joel Beasley at 00:28:45) No, I do. I love them. I thought they were cool. And so how do you—and I saw them because I was like, alright, you've got all these different—you have a handful of different robots that have different purposes. And so I was curious. Are you just thinking of these ideas and building them and then finding people to sell it to, or are people—you have your first one and people say, "Okay, well, we also need a robot that can do this." Like, how do you come up with the new ideas, or how do the customers tell you what's needed in the market?

(David at 00:29:13) It's actually the experience over this seven years which I had before, I think. And also all these guys which joined the company actually have the same thinking. So I was actually mostly suffering bringing amazing robots, but having no way to bring them to the market because they sound like cobots, or collaborative robots. They're supposed to help humans, to work with humans, to be all the time side by side with humans. But the thing is, to really bring them next to the human is a very big thing.

(David at 00:29:42) Because there's risk assignments. There's many big things which nobody talks about. So it's negative things which don't make it actually able to work next to humans because of safety reasons and whatever. So and there, we were actually already starting, and I was all the time thinking there has to be something more. There has to, first of all, to work with a human—I think the robot should know there is a human.

(David at 00:30:03) And that's how, actually—this is the first of the key features which we started to develop here in this company. It's about having a sensor, the only sensor which can decide what's a human and what's the other object. Right? Until now, there is nothing like that. So that's how we started, and we developed something which is crazy, which can actually, from three meters, decide there is a human. And then we can actually track the human and also see what a human does and actually react on that. So this is actually how we did it. We developed something which is able to work with the human, even knowing there's a human, and also having never the contact with human if the human don't want it. So it means the first of the rules should be a robot should never harm a human at all. That's, I think, the most important thing about having—through all these movies, I think, the robot is something bad.

(David at 00:30:54) But in our sense, the robot is not able to harm a human because it knows it's a human. There's a safety control behind which tells in a redundant way and also diverse way there is no possibility to go into the human or getting the tool into the human. And that's actually, until now, was not possible. We made it possible.

(David at 00:31:10) And the other cobots right now—all this, I think, I saw that you have already gotten contact with the collaborative robot. But the robot actually now just hits something, and then it stops. But the robot does not know it's a human. So it's just something it went into. So it has a limited force, and that's it. So nothing special on it. And that's, I think, not the way how we can make a safe interaction with the human. Because if you take the knife and you can give a knife, or something sharp—that does not even have to be a knife. You go into slowly into a human, it's still bad. Right?

(David at 00:31:45) And that's actually the thing. With the new kind of robotics that we are doing, the cognitive robot, we know it's a human. We know the environment, and we know actually how to interact with it. And that's actually the most, I think, the biggest advantage of it.

(Joel Beasley at 00:32:01) I never thought of that. Yeah. When I was playing with that robot, the five-pound pressure limit or whatever—when that would stop it and just cause it to go off—I never thought about, like, if it had a knife, that five-pound pressure limit would just go right through you. Yeah. That would be not good.

(David at 00:32:17) It's not even a knife. There's even grippers right now. The color of the grippers—they are not able to be color collaborative because there is a limited force. So there's a norm, ISO 66. I'm very familiar with it. So this way, I know even every norm of it. And there is actually even a human body, and there is a pressure amount which is allowed on every kind of body part. And they test it actually on real humans, and that's how the norm gets numb.

(David at 00:32:30) So to see this norm is actually already crazy, because I think even in a face part or whatever, you can never define that the robot is never going into your face because you have maybe to do something—it falls down, you go a little bit down—and the robot can hit you in the face. And there's actually nothing allowed because if it goes into your eyes, whatever, nothing is allowed. So right now, I think there are no good cobots, I can say. Even the cobot which I developed before, I would say it's not good enough to really work and interact with the human. And that was so difficult. So that's why we were only thinking how to change that.

(David at 00:33:17) And that's how everything came up, actually. So then we started to do this development and then I thought, okay, would be great if you can just talk to the human maybe because Siri is also talking to you. And then later we started, okay, maybe if we add this one, we can even have a sensitive skin so you can touch the robot everywhere and know where the forces come from, so you can have a joystick or something. So we do many cool things which were never done before, and that's actually—but it came step by step in a very short time. Very fast and short steps, actually.

(Joel Beasley at 00:33:48) That is exciting. I didn't know you get pressure maps and being able to see the humans, and it can tell when people are different heights or where they're wearing different clothes. It can figure all of that out.

(David at 00:33:58) Actually, our robot even knows by voice that it's me. So if I go there and I say, "Hi, Mira," she will say, "Hi, David." And if another guy goes there, it will tell us their name if it knows the voice. So it's actually very precise with the voice and also precise with the face because we have even face detection. So we do have even redundant ways of knowing that it's me. That's why always when I come there, I ask her how she's doing, and she will always say, "David, I'm fine." And yeah, that's actually the cool thing. It's little features. They are already there. I think everybody who works in the AI field has seen a lot of things, but never in the robot. That's what we did.

(Joel Beasley at 00:34:38) That is so—where is your factory located?

(David at 00:34:41) Actually, right now in Germany. So right now we are producing every robot actually here in Germany, in Hamburg. So we're actually in Henstedt. It's more the mechanical and electronical part. And here in Metzingen, where it's the headquarters, actually, here we have mostly the whole software, AI part, and sensor development part.

(Joel Beasley at 00:35:04) After the lockdown's done, I'm going to tell my team, I want to book a trip out to your factory and see it.

(David at 00:35:10) Come here. I mean, we have really cool things. And the thing is, we are sometimes even forgetting how cool it is because we somehow work every day. So we are also suffering. There's a day. It's not everything working right away, or—so we sometimes really be, I would say we never sleep. So we're always working, all the guys also. It's not just me or something. So every—the team is even suffering more than me, I would say. So everybody's really working on making something impossible possible.

(David at 00:35:40) And during this time, then you see the things which when they're started and really recognize my face, recognizing what I'm talking to, grabbing things which it does not even know how to know it before. So doing all these things, then you realize how cool it actually is. And even there, you don't realize because you realize most of it when people come from outside who have never seen that before, like even robotic specialists, robotic guys. And then they see that and they always say the same thing: "Well, it's crazy. That's really the new era." And before, they're always thinking we're talking just about—we're doing marketing talk, but we don't—we do really cool things which I think nobody has ever done before. And that's actually, yeah, the great thing.

(Joel Beasley at 00:36:24) We've got to start actually putting out content that says you're the Elon Musk of robotics because I think that you would carry that title really well. And I just see the future and the thing is in the future, you know, these things exist and someone's got to be finding the currently applicable business models and building the robotics and having the vision. And then the way you describe your team working reminds me of, you know, how you would hear of the Tesla employees working or the SpaceX employees working because they're on this mission together and they want to achieve this outcome. And, you know, you guys are so advanced. I was talking with Erwin.

(Joel Beasley at 00:37:03) He's a CTO, field CTO of this company called Tentry. Right? And they focus on digital transformation. So they help companies go through digital transformation. And I was thinking, how does a company like yours—I mean, you guys are just—you're in the future. You're building the future. Do you think about digital transformation? Is that a buzzword that comes up or how do you look at it?

(David at 00:37:25) Actually, yeah. I'm not really looking for some cool words or something. We're just looking at it—my job actually, and that's how I actually got into that stuff—is I saw I love technologies. I love things which are happening and you don't really have even an answer how it happened. Right? And that's actually how I, more and more, looked on all kind of applications in the automotive industry, in all kind of aerospace, on all kind of things. And then I started somehow thinking about how can we maybe make the robot have these abilities, or how can we actually use this maybe inside the robot? That's how—but there is no really—I think everybody here is just super motivated and has the freedom of doing something which they want. And that's actually the company.

(David at 00:38:21) So for sure, there is me, maybe sometimes not really always happy with things or whatever, but I think everybody here knows exactly: we're doing something which is crazy. We're doing something—everything is allowed as long as it's something which brings a feature of a human into a robot. And that's actually the whole task and also the whole goal of ambition of creating something which is super, super similar to a human, but still not a human. Because we are not trying to copy the human again. Because sometimes people understand me wrong, and they think, "He's creating—you think he's God," whatever. I don't. And I have a God and I believe in God, but I think there is something which—the next era of humans is actually having maybe more time for more important things. And that's actually for sure with the new era of robots because they are able to do tasks which we were doing until now, which we did not like. We don't want to automate things which we like. We want to automate things which we don't like for the next time to do it or to make other people do it.

(Joel Beasley at 00:39:19) I fully agree. I often have gotten—people have misinterpreted what I've said when I'm talking. A while back, I was having this imagination of the future where you would have these robots that could mine and harvest the materials to make more robots, and it was an autonomous robot feedback loop that would produce robots that would then do all the jobs we don't want to do so that we could do whatever we wanted to do. And I've had a lot of people have a big difficulty with wrapping their mind around that. And for me, it's pretty easy. It's like, okay, since day one of engineering, when I could write some code, I was like, that's cool. Let's see what else I can do, and let's automate that. And then I was creating chatbots twelve years ago, you know, and just having fun with them. And, whoa, look how close we could get this to a person. And then I was exploring emotion detection APIs, and I've been super geeky about this stuff for my entire life.

(Joel Beasley at 00:40:07) And it's in all the sci-fi. And I was so surprised because I started doing some research and books written fifty, eighty, a hundred plus years ago are imagining this stuff. We've been imagining this stuff since before electricity even existed. And to me, that's fascinating, because it's easy to imagine it now because we're so close in the movies and everything. But if you go read some writings from the 1800s, there are people imagining this stuff.

(David at 00:40:46) Oh, yes. Yes. They started super, super early about having first the picture of some metal being which is looking similar to a human and doing some tasks for us. There's a lot of writings. I also read the history. But it never came through. I somehow—it was not a time for it. Alright? So it's always like a development needed for that. So it means in the 1950s and 1960s, actually, we found the first robots into the market. It was actually at Ford or also in the U.S. So and right afterwards, every automotive company started to do automation. Alright? Because it makes—it actually brings our cost down for robot and also makes all these really heavy tasks, also the difficult tasks, makes them automated, and also always in the same quality and cheaper and things like that. So it brought us already a very huge advantage.

(David at 00:41:44) But until now, it was somehow far away because it was somehow closed and somewhere in the factories, and that's it. But now it's coming a little bit closer. And there is actually Hollywood doing a not really great job for us. I think they do it more difficult for us. But I think that's also a good thing because people are more questioning things maybe. And also, we have to somehow bring something which is really positive so they accept it. And that's actually our work right now—so bringing something and making something which they see will clearly be a very positive impact to them, and then they start to buy it. Because the market has also—it has to grow first. But yes, you're right. Actually, it took a long time and people were all the time already thinking about it many, many, many years. I just started eight, nine years ago, I think. But somehow now I think I know everything about robotics and I know actually it's my key vision.

(Joel Beasley at 00:42:38) The timing is right for you. And I think you're right too. When you said that there's some fear there or Hollywood—I believe that there's almost a purpose to everything. Right? So I know that sounds strange that I believe there's a purpose to things, but I do. And it's almost as if that converse—the scariness that maybe Hollywood might portray—although they do both sides of it, but the fear ones tend to be cooler. Right? But that actually creates the conversation. And so it creates this greater responsibility within the general public to make sure rule number one is don't harm humans. Right?

(Joel Beasley at 00:43:18) And so that maybe creates a benefit there, or maybe just the act of the fear creating the conversation actually builds the market for it. You listen to Tony Robbins. He says, you know, you get what you focus on. Right? So it's like, let's focus on positive outcomes for robots.

(David at 00:43:35) That's true. That's actually the thing because a plane is actually built for transferring, transporting people, but there is also jets which are just fighters which are bombing things. So there's always a tank, and there's always an ambulance car. There is—everything—you can always—it's, I think, always in human hands. And that's why I think as long as in our hands, that's why I also always talk to our team: we are focusing on the good things. And we are not interested in military stuff. Even it sounds cool, maybe in games, but military stuff actually is there to kill people, and I would never support that. But we can do many other good things out of it. And that's actually always in our hands. And I think as long as we are doing it, we can do something great out of it.

(Joel Beasley at 00:44:26) That's the beautiful thing about getting older in life is you kind of look around and you're just like, okay, well, no one else is doing this. Maybe it's my responsibility now. I guess I'm the one that's going to step up and do it. And then you get to help, you know, shape history and humanity as a whole. I think it's super cool. I was also curious, when you were talking about your team, you know, we had a bunch of questions people sent in. They were asking about culture and things of that nature. But it seems like them being on this mission and being so passionate about it, that kind of bypasses a lot of the culture issues that might come up. Right? It seems like people are genuinely motivated by accomplishing this. And if I'm wrong, let me know. But have you ever encountered problems with culture at a company?

(David at 00:45:15) Never. We have about 20 different cultures inside. Different—20 different countries. People from 20 different countries. Even more, I think. So they're from everywhere, even countries like Iran or which everybody sanctions or all kind of countries. But I think nobody here really judges about it. And I think nobody really—and I would not even let it happen because I think we are here very multicultural and every culture brings something good and different thinking inside. So I think it's actually a very positive impact to have that many different kind of cultures, different thinkings, different approaches of thinking. And that actually makes it, I think, even more—I would actually encourage everyone to not try to be one—let everybody—let the people decide on their abilities and not about where they come from or what, you know?

(David at 00:45:55) Even their plans, they are mostly different when they come in, but they change them over time when they get infected, I would say, by this vision or when they also start believing in it. And then you see the change of the people. They don't talk about their religions. They don't talk about things which they would maybe do in other companies, but here not because they all work together and they all know we are all fighting for one thing, for the same thing. And there's something which calls a robot and something which is bringing good to the world. And that's actually the deal we're working on.

(Joel Beasley at 00:46:42) I like it. I like that. It seems like companies are creating the unity almost in one regard. We used to think of the unity through the government or the team, the country that we're a part of. They would create the unity by the mission. In the U.S., it was the space shuttles, you know, back in the day, and that would create unification. But it seems like politically, a lot of the countries are just really split up, right, across the world. And then some of these companies like your company, right, like Neura Robotics or HANS Robot, SpaceX, Tesla—these companies are creating these missions and collecting these groups of people and this passion to achieve these outcomes. And honestly, I love that we have unity emerging because when we're all aligned together to achieve an outcome, that is a better life. I have lived life unaligned on a project or a mission, or just kind of floating around. And then I have lived life aligned.

(Joel Beasley at 00:47:47) And it's not about moving to a new country or changing this or buying that or a bigger or smaller house or flat or whatever it may be. It's really about, am I connected to a mission and a purpose? And am I doing good work with other people who are focused too? Those are the things that bring me joy, personally and professionally.

(David at 00:48:07) That's for sure. Yes. I think for myself the same. Before I actually had this mission, I was thinking completely different. I was never thinking about spending all of my day and night here and doing something which has a purpose, maybe for me now.

(David at 00:48:24) Now I'm just thinking different. But I think if you have a purpose in life, then you're working on it and you'll give all your heart inside. And I think mostly you don't think about the unnecessary things about different cultures, about things like problems or whatever. You're mostly thinking about that differently, solving the things. It's just a completely different mindset, I would say.

(David at 00:48:49) I think my life got changed a lot. Before I was also doing crazy and good things, and I love them. I actually spent time in US for one and a half years. I was in San Francisco, close to San Francisco, working as a social worker, actually. So as a case manager for people which were homeless, people came out of prisons.

(David at 00:49:08) And it was an amazing time, and it actually teach me a lot. The first thing, first of all, you can achieve everything if you just do it. And the other thing is about you always need a purpose. If not, you will lose your life. And that's actually how you see it in people which maybe are role models and then they, sometimes I'm not sure if I'm okay with it. Sometimes they even kill themselves or they get into depressions and everything because somehow they achieved everything. And then they were looking. They have an emptiness.

(David at 00:49:40) I think if you have some goal which is never ending, and to change the world to something good, it's never ending. Or helping the humanity to be even better or changing things in a positive faith. Like also, Elon Musk does. He has very big ambitious dreams. Right? And he really believe in it. That's why he's also successful. And that's also why he's always, and the people, not many people talk bad about him, are the most really enjoy when he's talking whatever because he's not talking about political things. He's talking about dreams or making something good.

(David at 00:50:15) And that's actually also, I think, having some crazy good job which you enjoy doing it and having a real purpose on it. And I can encourage everyone because it's for everybody possible. That was actually also the lesson I get teach when I was in San Fran working with all those people. I started actually writing with them. I hear one guy, he was actually, he a multimillionaire, but he was once on the street. And he actually told, actually one thing, he wrote us a book about it. I'm not sure how it goes, but he told me one thing. You can be whatever you want, but just do it. Or just write a book, and then go step for step, and then you will achieve it.

(David at 00:50:55) And then when you really think about deeply, it's true. And that's how I started actually working with these people on the street. I'm trying to first of all find them what's actually your purpose in life because everybody has purpose. I believe in it. And then actually, even if it's super big, there was one guy, he was actually talking about astrophysics, and he was not even having a high school degree. So it was fine. It was difficult for me to explain it, but it was a way too there, and he made it, actually.

(David at 00:51:17) And that's actually, I think, the big thing. The people should start believing in, and then don't just sit around where it, just do it. And that's the thing. There is always step for that. There is always possibility to get there. But you really need to do it. That's actually mostly the laziness of us humans. Even for myself, I had a completely different thinking before. And yeah, trying to get somehow rich without having, and it doesn't matter how.

(David at 00:51:50) Even if I marry Paris Hilton or whatever, there was a dream for it. But later, actually, I understood that there is actually, even this is not the purpose, and you will never be happy with it. You have to somehow make something. And then later, having money, something good. But just something which comes, I think, afterwards if you're doing a great job. And that's what you're doing.

(Joel Beasley at 00:52:14) Yeah. I think you definitely figure out purpose and then the money comes because you have to do something for a long time. And you gotta really pour yourself completely into it.

(David at 00:52:25) Yes. We had some suffering days. I mean, some of my teams, they're joining, they're with me already since, I think, from the beginning, nine years about. So there was really the time where we did not sleep. We did not have the weekends like everybody. We did not have Christmas or Easter. Not because we did, we were suffering. We don't have money. No. It's because we want to have something bigger. We aim for something to achieve something in a record time.

(David at 00:52:51) It was always my thing. I don't want to do something. I always want to have it tomorrow. And that's actually also something my issue. That's also sometimes a good thing. And I think we also established a company. It's also South Of Germany. It was actually the third company. And there actually, we dreamed Volkswagen came to us and and talked about a tool which is having everything in zero gravity. So every part, even up to 150 kilograms you can handle with your two fingers.

(David at 00:53:17) And you're doing robotics, and robotics is actually doing the same thing. And then we start, okay. That's a cool thing. We do it. And then we have four months to having something which was not even a scratch there. We signed it. I designed it with one of my best friends there. Then we had our software developer, which is even today, and we made it happen. And four months later, we bring it actually to Volkswagen. There was the start of production actually on the line.

(David at 00:53:43) And we really, the night, the whole night, we were working on it. We were still not sure if it happens. And in the morning, we stopped it and it was directly perfect on time. And the whole system runs. We were done for the next half a year, but we made it. And there was a side work, you know. I managed two other companies at the same time. And in the night, we were driving the whole night to the other, even was another country because I was living in Switzerland, but we drove to Germany, and then we made the product.

(David at 00:54:14) And we made something crazy. It was like a hobby. Also, we suffered. Every day I was thinking, why did I do that? And I spent all my money inside everything. But later we figured out it was something good. We teach. We get a lesson out of it. Even for today, I always know even how stressful it is, it will never be as stressful as it was before. So this is why I think that's always important to get away there. And that's how you can also handle this big stress.

(Joel Beasley at 00:54:45) Yeah. And that's one of the reasons why everybody really respects Elon Musk because he already, he did pay, he had his PayPal exit. He had his $100 million plus dollars and then he's just like, let's go at it again. And then he builds the companies and he just keeps getting back up and doing it. And, you know, everyone, it's like an interstate, you know, a road. You can choose to exit. You can choose to get off the highway, but some people just keep driving down that highway as long as they can, as long as they have gas in the car or electric battery in the car. As long as they have fuel, energy.

(David at 00:55:21) That's actually the thing. All of a sudden I see him and I see his story, I love it because he's actually doing exactly the right thing. Because he would not be Elon Musk if he would stop before. He is the guy which just put all his money in again and just did it again. And so I'm super sure that he was in the time when he invested this money, he was thinking many times, oh my god. I did the biggest mistake in my life. And that's actually what everybody's doing, and that's what we also, I mean, he is doing it in a very big way. I mean, I still have to work for my life, I think.

(David at 00:55:59) But he, I mean, with after selling Paypal, he would not have to work anymore. But he still did it. But I think today he knows why he did it, and I think he's happy about it. And that's actually, I think, the purpose in life. Doing something which is bringing something good and making people also believe because he made many people believe in dreams. And that's actually why he's a star.

(Joel Beasley at 00:56:15) So as we start to wrap up, I wanna know, what are you learning right now as a leader?

(David at 00:56:22) I actually learning trust. So I'm actually, I'm a believer, so I really believe in God. And I starting trusting in things, and I always know that that things are never happened because of some, it's always the reason behind. That's what I learned the most because I see now many things coming up and then I really see actually how I can lead it all the time and why many bad things happened before, which are now a good thing.

(David at 00:57:07) And the other is about, what I get actually what I learned out of it is actually that everything we're doing, we have to have fun over there. And that's the only possibility to enjoy it and also to try to see it positive. Even if sometimes it looks not positive, actually. Because that's actually the most difficult thing, and I think many people know me also as a, sometimes as an angry guy. Or I'm coming in and I'm like, because I have some vision goals and sometimes I'm so deep inside that I think the whole world goes down and whatever, but we did already amazing steps.

(David at 00:57:28) And sometimes, and that's actually what I'm trying and what I'm getting learned right now in a hard way, that I just sometimes go one step back and looking from outside again and then thinking about how great and how crazy it is actually what we did until now. And then I somehow go back in and see the all the guys in a positive way again. And every engineer as the really hero are. But before when I went outside, they were all people which made everything wrong, you know? And that's what I think. Yeah. I try, I get more trust and in the leading way of God and also in my engineers and my colleagues in my team.

(Joel Beasley at 00:58:08) It's a tough thing. It's a constant area of my growth as well. I struggle with trust and faith and patience. Those are, I'd say, some of the biggest items for me. And this week, I was super excited to go see the first space launch, rocket launch ever, but then it got scrubbed. It got canceled. So I just found out today, and I was like, you know what? There's gonna be something positive here. There's a really good reason why it got moved. Everything's gonna realign, and it's gonna be great.

(Joel Beasley at 00:58:40) But there would be times, you know, earlier in my maturity cycle, right, where I would just be so frustrated. Like, why is this happening? This sucks. My plan. And now I'm learning, I guess, after enough time in life. I'm just learning that, look, it always works out. And whenever I'm in a really deep, difficult place, later, I realized in hindsight that prepared me for this blessing or this great thing that was going to happen to me in the future.

(Joel Beasley at 00:59:10) And then it allows you to slowly build that faith and build that trust that everything's going to work out. And yeah, it's one of the more interesting parts of life.

(David at 00:59:21) Really? Yes. And we have to get learned of, that's why we're going through the time. And yes, I was many times, actually, I was so really wrote down and see my world is ending. Everything is bad. Whatever ends. And then always something good came out. Even this year, last year with COVID, our, I mean, we started our company. We made our goals. They were ambitious. They were crazy. Nobody believed in it. Many people even laughed about it. That's actually what I love on it. So this is why I want to prove that whatever they say, we will make it happen, and we'll make it even faster than I said.

(David at 01:00:00) And then the most hard thing is we actually want to launch it on the on the fair, the automatic, the biggest automation fair in Munich. And so we want to launch there as a secret thing. So we come up, and then we have the craziest show. We organize everything, really crazy. And then everything got canceled, you know? And that was our first down. Even the whole team, everybody, even myself, I was thinking, oh my god. You know? We made everything for it. And then we made it happen. Why? You know?

(David at 01:00:33) And somehow, in this time, when we had actually, even we were still not really ready for it. Even we could show maybe some cool things, but having something that we would just concentrate on the show again, and then we would be farther away for a commercialized product. So this is why I took it actually a very positive. And then we had a very cool plan for future days. We had a huge hall with a lot of seats and everything, and even that got canceled. And then we have them to go online. But then we actually reach out for more people. So it actually was not bad.

(David at 01:01:07) So it was until now, we see just positive. And even we thought it's bad, but today, actually, we're super happy.

(Joel Beasley at 01:01:14) Oh, I'm glad it worked out. Well, you have a fantastic day, my friend. And if you need anything, just let us know and we're here to help you. Okay?

(David at 01:01:22) Awesome. For you, Hussein, have a good time and stay safe, stay healthy, and thank you so much for this evening. It feels great.

(Joel Beasley at 01:01:33) Thank you so much for listening. And if you found this episode useful, please share it with a friend or colleague who you think would get value from it. And if you have topics that you'd like to hear discussed on the podcast, either add me on LinkedIn or send me an email [email protected]. Every time I get an email or LinkedIn message, it absolutely makes my day and inspires me to keep going.