Greg Larson - SVP of Engineering at Divvy

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:00) Hello, my friends. Today we are talking to Greg, the SVP of Engineering at Divvy, and we discuss how Divvy exposes their engineers to other parts of the business through empathy hour, thoughts on inspiration and self-care, and the impact definitions have when it comes to team alignment. All of this right here, right now on the Modern CTO Podcast. Here we go. This is the Modern CTO Podcast.

(Greg at 00:00:35) Hello. Hello. Hey, how are you?

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:39) Digging the beard. Thank you. When I saw your picture on the show prep, I was like, this guy looks like a rock star. He must be in a rock band. And my team was like, are you kidding? He actually is. Or he was in high school. And I was so pumped up. I was like, yep, that's good. I like it when people look similar to how I imagine them, like right off the bat. It makes me happy.

(Greg at 00:01:01) There you go. Yeah, no, I still have the adornments of rock star. I've got like the drum set behind me and guitars on the wall. So not rocking out like I used to, but yeah, still having me, I guess.

(Joel Beasley at 00:01:16) We tried to hunt down the band. We were trying to find some songs and things like that. We couldn't. We have a good research team. We found Jason Warner's, CTO of GitHub, his secret past life of writing fitness books, but we couldn't find your rock band, though.

(Greg at 00:01:31) Yeah, no, it's sad. I don't know. There's a few that I've been in, and it seems like for one reason or another, a lot of what we had has kind of left the internet even. So I think one of it was like one band I was in, we had a bunch of videos saved on the hard drive and the hard drive blew up or whatever and, you know, stupid old teenagers us, we didn't like back it up multiple times or anything. So that stuff's gone. So yeah, I still have a—I actually found my iPod or rather my son found my iPod, and it had some of our songs on there. So I've still got some stuff around.

(Joel Beasley at 00:02:06) Oh, it's still out there. Nice. Yeah, yeah. Probably find it on, I tried to make a reference, but I just forgot the name. What was the—Napster? There we go. Probably find it on Napster along with some viruses.

(Greg at 00:02:20) That's right. Yeah, yeah. Download at your own risk.

(Joel Beasley at 00:02:23) So you're out in Utah?

(Greg at 00:02:25) I am. Yeah.

(Joel Beasley at 00:02:26) I heard that it's called the Silicon Slopes out there.

(Greg at 00:02:29) Yeah, that's what we call it, and I think that it's a big thing for us. I'm not always sure how much the rest of the world or the nation sees us as kind of a big of a tech hub, but it is growing like crazy. There actually are a lot of great tech companies here, and yeah, the Silicon Slopes area is definitely fun to be in for that reason.

(Joel Beasley at 00:02:47) I was looking for different weather patterns and climates, places that I want to live because I live in Florida and it's extremely hot all the time. And that's fine when it was me and my wife, and now our little kids want to go outside all the time. And so we are exploring different places of weather, and there's this band that cuts through Southern Utah and Texas and Nevada. And that was a great area. We couldn't find any largely populated towns, though, in Southern Utah. So is it more northern, like where everyone's going there for snow and the slopes?

(Greg at 00:03:19) Yeah. So I'd say if you're looking for a bigger population in Southern Utah, it's probably Saint George. My parents actually have a home down there. And Saint George has pretty warm weather all year long. Some people say maybe too hot in the summer, and so they'll often have like a winter home down there. Up where I am and where Silicon Slopes is and everything is, I think, technically Northern Utah. It's like the Wasatch Front, like the Salt Lake City area. And we've got good seasons all around. Like so summer gets pretty toasty. We'll get over 100 a few times in the summer, and then fall will get below freezing. We'll have snow. I'm a little further south in Salt Lake, and so we actually get less snow. Like I think I have to plow my driveway like twice a year type of thing, which isn't bad. But then the mountains are still close enough that I can go skiing, you know, sometimes up until like July at some of the resorts. So yeah, Utah's awesome if you want to get outside and do things. And that's what we've—I've got kids too, and that's one thing we've been doing a lot, especially during the pandemic, is getting outside and going biking and hiking and whatnot.

(Joel Beasley at 00:04:18) Do you have any good fun facts about Utah?

(Greg at 00:04:22) Fun facts about Utah? It was a while ago, but I remember when I grew up in like really Northern Utah in the Cache Valley area, which is kind of a smaller part. And I remember at the time we were up there, I think we got like some award for like the highest life expectancy in the US. And we always used to joke it's because we had like the best water because you could drink just tap water, and it was always really tasty and really clean and everything. At least we thought. I don't know who, maybe knows something was in there. But yeah, high life expectancy. And I think it was also the safest city of its size in the nation at the time too. So I mean like the perfect place to grow up, I guess. Long lives and safe lives.

(Joel Beasley at 00:05:05) So how do you go from like mountain child to rock band to tech? Like what's the progression of your career?

(Greg at 00:05:14) Yeah, so that's a good question. I would say it's probably different than many in the tech world. I actually—so in high school, I was always fascinated by engineering and things like that. And so I think I always had my sights on—it was actually really around like mechanical and aerospace engineering. I wanted to be a rocket scientist and not just to brag about it, which is a benefit, but also because I was fascinated by like aircraft and race cars and things like that. So I always had my sights on that, but around high school and then shortly after, like getting into college, I actually started in sales. And I was pretty big into sales for a few years, managed a sales team and ended up recruiting for a sales company. So I was really big into that and did well by all the normal measures. Like I was successful enough at it, definitely learned a lot. I think there's a lot you can learn from sales that I think maybe be harder to learn in other careers or jobs. But then from there, went from like a really kind of direct sales job to then actually working at Best Buy and started in sales at Best Buy and then got onto the Geek Squad, which was kind of fun. That was just—I don't know. It's always fun to say you're on the Geek Squad, I guess. It's kind of a good old nostalgic time. And then from there, at the time I was in college at the same time. And I remember this opportunity came up where I think all the students got like an email about Microsoft and how they were hiring for internships and for positions because they're just opening up an office actually here in Utah. I was going to school at University of Utah at the time and little old audacious me thought, yeah, sure. Like I'm in my computer science degree. I think I'm in like my third year, second year or something like, yeah, I know enough to go work at Microsoft. No problem. So I applied and was like, hey, I think you guys would be—I have a great fit there. It should be a lot of fun. Sure enough, they call me back and I go through the interviews and everything there and ended up landing an internship at Microsoft. And that was kind of my switch from like historically more of maybe like a sales-focused job and to then like actually being in tech and jumped over to Microsoft as an intern and was there for a few years. And shortly after Microsoft, kind of hopped around between big and small companies, like went to a startup after that and then quickly got into leadership. And that's actually where I've been most of my career now is in leadership in tech.

(Joel Beasley at 00:07:38) That's actually really interesting. I like your story of having sales experience because I developed product for several years and didn't have like sales experience as far as a B2B operational sales process goes. And so when I was developing product, you know, you're reading about product, you're understanding the customer needs, you under—like that's common in product world and engineering world. Most people have had the experience where you're understanding like how to process customer feedback. But what isn't common there is actually having to sell the business value of the product. And the only way I've gotten that experience is by actually participating as a full-time member of a sales team. And when you see it from that perspective of what it feels like to go through a sales process and the people either, you know, understanding which candidate's good or they're going to ghost you or however the cadence may be between the relationships of this and then the sheer volume—the fact that, you know, you're closing like 20% and that's like great. 20 or 30% is like amazing. And so the amount of conversations you have to have and then what you glean from all the different people and what—how it's—you get this new thing that happens where you start detecting these patterns between everybody because you're talking to so many people and they're all kind of saying the same thing. And all of those skills, like one of the things, I guess, if I had to choose something to go back and like teach my younger self, it would be, you know, get in—you love the technology, you're building stuff, but go participate on a sales team because it would just amplify your ability to create product.

(Greg at 00:09:14) Yeah, yeah. No, I totally agree with that. It's funny how different it is to be a salesperson even at the same company where in the past, one thing I like to do is have my engineering team see or even, like you said, participate in some of the sales demos and things like that. And it's not the same as having that job full-time because, like you said, there's a lot to it that's different. You know, I like the idea of, you have to do a lot of work to win not as often. Like, you know, if you're closing, like you said, like 20% of the time, like that's probably like amazing, right? So that means that you're not closing, that you're maybe in a sense kind of failing 80% of the time or more. And I think for engineers, that's a really kind of foreign concept that I think, especially for younger engineers, when they start out, they don't want to start something and think that they might fail at it. They want to start and know that they'll be successful. And so maybe they're not willing to do as much research or take many risks on being as creative and things like that. And then they'll kind of stick with what may have been a bad decision at the beginning of a project because they're too afraid to let it fail and kind of start over. Whereas to a salesperson, that's just part of the job. And so yeah, no, I like that. I'll show demos to engineers and it's fun to see, like they're surprised when they realize, like, wow, I thought totally differently of our products. Like I just had a very different relationship with what our product is and what it does based on how I work on it. And then to see a salesperson present it to a prospect is like, wow, like totally eye opening. I didn't even think about it that way. So it's really cool for them to get that understanding.

(Joel Beasley at 00:10:47) Yeah. It's like you can fall in love as an engineer with different features based off of their complexity or what was happening while you were building them and all of this attachment. And it's really interesting to get that other perspective. Now at Divvy, when you have—you guys are growing larger company now—how do you still keep that? Do you have like an onboarding process? Do you just bring in sales team to talk with them? How do you make sure that the engineers that, you know, just like how you were an intern at Microsoft, that the engineers starting out early at Divvy are getting exposed to all of these things?

(Greg at 00:11:21) Yeah. And one thing that we were doing—COVID kind of shook a lot of things up, and so I think we're trying to get back into some of the old habits that we had. So we could definitely be better with some of these things. But some of the things we've done in the past is we have what we called empathy hour, where we would actually have engineers take like rotations with like the sales team or the customer support team and would sit right next to them at their desk or, I guess, you know, preferably now, like on a Zoom call or something, and be there to participate in what they're doing and to like take notes and like really get into it and understand like what the position is, but like what the person's doing, the challenges they're seeing kind of day in and day out. And that helped a lot because it literally did build a lot of that empathy. And the engineers would come back kind of back to their own role again with like a greater sense of understanding about more of the product and things and more of our business, but then also motivation to do more to serve the customer and to make our product better in that regard too. So that was a big thing that we do is do the empathy hour and we do it for both new employees and for old too, just kind of keep it on as a regular thing. So yeah, that was—I think that was one of the best things. There's also, you know, making sure that we have—I think we've got really good alignment between sales and product and engineering and making sure those relationships are really good and that we're providing opportunities for people to strike up conversations even if it's kind of like water cooler talk. A lot of times that water cooler talk turns into, yeah, hey, over in the sales team, like we're looking at like this thing and like this has been like either like a great opportunity for us now that this feature's out or like, man, like we're getting beat up because we don't have this. And again, having engineers like with those opportunities to hear that and to be, again, just socializing even with members of different teams, can help a lot. So we try to provide opportunities where we're just getting people to mingle.

(Joel Beasley at 00:13:14) Nice. I like that. I like the branding of empathy hour because I haven't heard that before, but it's really clear and it's an—I find that sometimes if you can like brand these things, then they're easier to understand and easier to make happen. Yeah. What was it like? What's the story of you actually like meeting the leadership team at Divvy?

(Greg at 00:13:36) Yeah. So I was introduced to them, the co-founders, Blake Murray and Alex Bean here at Divvy by a friend of mine who knew them kind of growing up and whatnot. And when Blake and Alex were just starting Divvy, really kind of just had the idea of it, they knew that it was going to be something big, and they wanted to get started right away hiring an engineering team to get building on the product and like off to the races, right? So they were very ambitious and kind of bold in on how they wanted to get going really quick. And so I got introduced to them and immediately off the bat was super impressed both by them personally. They definitely came from backgrounds where they understood what it took to build a company and how to be successful. And despite what I think maybe could have appeared to be like arrogance on like, hey, our idea is amazing and it's going to go somewhere, it wasn't arrogant. It was just the confidence that, yeah, we have a great idea. We have something we know is going to work well. We're really passionate about it. It solves a big problem or even a set of problems that businesses everywhere face. And so it's a really fun product to help deliver. And that was infectious.

(Greg at 00:14:48) I bought in immediately and thought, yeah, this is gonna be something big, and I wanna be a part of it. So it was, yeah, I was sold on it knowing that Divvy was gonna be a big thing. And sure enough, I mean, we'll continually have our record days and record months and things like that.

(Greg at 00:15:04) We're growing, and so we're gonna continue having those hopefully for a long time. And so on one hand, it's like, holy cow, look at what we're doing. On the other hand, it's also like, yeah, we talked about this a while back. Again, not arrogantly, but confidently knew we would get to this stage. We knew that we had something special here. And if we worked hard on executing on it, it would go somewhere. And it's been fun to see that.

(Joel Beasley at 00:15:28) So what does it do? What's the problem that you solve?

(Greg at 00:15:31) Yeah. So the core, I guess, what Divvy is is it's a combination of a bank product, like a corporate card product for companies to use for spending, and then coupling that with innovative software that allows companies to then create budgets for their teams and for projects to divvy funds to one another to give people money to spend, but all while controlling it so that they don't overspend and so they can see how money is being spent in real time as opposed to after the fact when the books are closed. And then eliminating the expense report because everything's done in real time in the software. And so if you had to say, if you could pull out one core value prop, it's that it gives businesses a lot more power and visibility into how they spend money.

(Joel Beasley at 00:16:21) That's pretty cool.

(Greg at 00:16:22) Does it—

(Joel Beasley at 00:16:23) Do, like, cash flow analysis stuff, or just is it just divvying money between, like, if I need a virtual card, I can boot one up. Like, we just had a new employee, new team member join, and she was like, what's the card number? And we need to get her a new card, so we could just do that virtually, and then she can spend money.

(Greg at 00:16:40) Yeah. Exactly. So the idea then, one of the things I really love about it is everyone at the company can have a card, can have a physical card to use to spend on company expenses. They can be given that money, you know, if it's recurring every month or just if they ask for it, so to speak. So they're empowered to spend on what they need to spend money on, and I think that empowerment is really cool for employees.

(Greg at 00:17:04) They feel like, hey, I wanna go do this thing or buy this thing because it helps me on my job. Like, great. I've already got the money for it. I'm empowered to go do it. And yeah, you can create virtual cards in real time on the fly for online purchases and things so you can make them more safely and track those things too. So one thing I love about too is we can track all of our SaaS subscriptions and software that we use because we'll put them on virtual cards and track the month over month spending and things like that. So we can see, you know, maybe if something as simple as our Jira bill or something going up and up, or tracking things so we can forecast, so we can understand how efficient we are.

(Joel Beasley at 00:17:44) And were you one of the first employees?

(Greg at 00:17:48) Yeah. So I came in about a month after we really got started. I think I'm technically employee number 13. And with that, so that means we hired 15 or so employees in the first couple months. They started out with a bang.

(Greg at 00:18:00) They created, most of that was engineering, so we created a fairly significant engineering team for a new startup. Just because, again, we knew our mission. We knew our objective. We knew what we wanted to build. So it's just a matter of getting to work and building that. So yeah. So I've been here for about the whole time that Divvy's been around, which is, again, been really cool.

(Joel Beasley at 00:18:19) And where are you at today as far as size, if you can share it?

(Greg at 00:18:23) Yeah. So we're around the 300 employee mark. So we're still, I don't know, I guess in some ways it seems like we're smaller maybe employee count-wise, but in terms of what we're doing as a company, you know, growing customer account-wise like crazy and, you know, revenue going up and up and up and all those things. All the measures are just growing like crazy.

(Greg at 00:18:46) And so I would say, in most ways, Divvy kind of feels or acts like a bigger company than we are and an older company that we are. And I think, again, part of that's because we've just grown so fast. We've had to be that way.

(Joel Beasley at 00:19:01) So who are these customers? What do they look like?

(Greg at 00:19:04) Yeah. It's a good question. Most of them are SMBs, small to medium businesses, and everyone might define that differently. But for Divvy, it really can be anyone from the mom and pop shops who just have, you know, a small family-owned business with a few employees, up to bigger companies. Like, we have some tech companies that use us that are in the thousands of employees range.

(Greg at 00:19:26) So that's maybe more of what we probably consider mid-market or something, but it kinda spans that whole gamut. And what's great about it is it's a free product. So if you're a really small company and you're tight on budget, right, you can afford Divvy because it's free. That way you can also stop paying for other solutions that you kinda cobble together to do some of what Divvy does. So it actually saves you money right off the bat that way.

(Greg at 00:19:52) But then we can grow with you. So when you're a bigger company, you can continue using Divvy. And vertical-wise, it works for everyone. We have tech companies. We have construction companies. We have agencies, dentists. I mean, you name it. We're kind of everywhere, which is really cool.

(Joel Beasley at 00:20:08) So how do you make money? What's your revenue model?

(Greg at 00:20:11) Yeah. So the card that we issue, it's the Divvy card, the companies then use to make all their purchases with. That has a standard interchange rate, like every credit card, and Divvy participates in a big portion of getting that interchange. So that's where we make the money. Yeah.

(Greg at 00:20:27) So it's really cool. And in a lot of ways, we say we build like we're a software company, but then we make money like we're a bank. And that's really beneficial especially to the customers because, again, it makes it so we can have a free product. But the way that we make money as a company grows and scales in a really exciting way still.

(Joel Beasley at 00:20:45) Okay. So help me with this. So you're employee 13. You're at, you know, over 300 now. You were there the whole time. What is the biggest takeaway from from that growth?

(Greg at 00:20:58) Oh, man. The biggest takeaway from that growth. Oh, it's hard to pick just one. The takeaway for me is I think it's around kinda having that confidence and looking ahead. You know, cause Divvy's just grown so explosively, we've had to make sure we keep up with ourselves and ideally stay ahead so we can keep growing in things.

(Greg at 00:21:23) And I think a lot of that came down to us, even when we were smaller acting and feeling like we were more successful, maybe not bigger, but more successful. Like, even before we made a single dollar in revenue, in many ways, we acted like we were making more and not out of a celebrating prematurely type of thing or, you know, counting your chickens before the eggs hatch. The way that I kinda joke about it is that you almost fake it till you make it. And it's, and again, it's not in order to deceive anyone. If anything, it's to give yourself that kind of mental permission to act like how you want to be when you're successful.

(Greg at 00:22:02) And making that mental switch in and of itself is almost like one of the biggest obstacles to then actually being successful. That, again, early on, we made that mental switch and said, we're gonna be big. We're gonna be successful. So what are the things that we're doing that mirror or mimic that, if that makes sense? Like, we are a successful company. How do we act? You know, we honor quality and things. We put customers first. These are the practices internally that we follow here too. These are the things that we're gonna see coming that successful companies see.

(Greg at 00:22:36) And so how are we gonna handle it? And so, again, you fake it till you make it, not because you're trying to deceive anyone or pretend, more that you wanna put yourself mentally into that state where it's like, okay, if I am successful, what am I doing? What am I doing that's gonna match that level of success and drive?

(Joel Beasley at 00:22:56) I 100% get it. So when I started, I said, you know, on day one, I said, we're number one. And we're like, well, we haven't even put out any episodes yet. So I know. I was like, we're number one from the day we start because what happens is in everything we do, we're asking ourselves what would the number one do?

(Joel Beasley at 00:23:17) What would the number one leadership and technology podcast in the world do? How would they act? What type of people would they have? What topics would they cover? Well, they'd cover the topics that are most useful to people. Right? They would bring the most value. And so then you get into this, you know, mindset, like, as you were describing of making decisions from a perspective of where you wanna be. It's like, this is what the version of who I wanna become would do. Like, what would the best version of Joel do?

(Joel Beasley at 00:23:44) Right? What would the best version of Greg do? And then you slowly and surely take action and become incrementally better. And then, you know, years later, you look back and everyone's like, how did you do that? And we're like, alright.

(Joel Beasley at 00:23:59) Every decision we made, we made it from that position, and then we got here.

(Greg at 00:24:03) Yep. Yeah. No. That's that's exactly it. I think that there's often obstacles that we put in front of ourselves where we don't do certain things or act a certain way because we're kind of waiting for that "if" or that "when" that it's like, well, you know, when we're seeing that success, then it will be that way.

(Greg at 00:24:20) Or when I've learned to do that better, then I'll be a better leader type of thing or, you know, but often we have to put ourselves there first. And again, that's not to say that you do that and you're done. There's obviously a lot of work to do still, but it gives you that mental, sets that kind of mental identity almost of, like, I'm successful. And that's not like me bragging or boasting or trying to deceive anyone. That's me saying, so what am I doing to be successful?

(Greg at 00:24:48) And it immediately raises those things. Like you said, it's a good way to kinda view decisions of okay, what would we do if we're gonna be successful? Look at it through that lens.

(Joel Beasley at 00:24:59) Yeah. Because as humans, we want to be in alignment with our identity. We wanna do the things that we say we're doing. And so if you're saying I'm successful, it forces you to actually evaluate yourself to see if you're lying or not. It's like just an internal check process that happens, and that's a very motivating experience.

(Greg at 00:25:22) Yeah. Yeah. I think it especially resonates, though I think it's a bit harder to make that mental switch with, uh, maybe the more common engineering personalities. We often tend to be the types that are maybe more cynical or pessimistic of situations, and we're quick to find problems. That's part of our job.

(Greg at 00:25:41) And so, again, it's often this exercise that we go through to say, like, well, we can't be that way because of this, this and this. And so we, again, almost even subconsciously prevent ourselves from believing in ourselves and believing that we are gonna be successful because we see these obstacles. You know, winners don't have zero obstacles to overcome. The most successful people, companies, you know, whatever, even teams, families, aren't free of obstacles or friction that makes their forward progress harder. In fact, in a lot of cases, they have more of that, and that's forced them to have more of that kinda mental fortitude or strength to power through that.

(Greg at 00:26:21) So I think it's harder to maybe convince many engineering personalities of that. But if you're able to do that, I think it's really fun to see what happens. And, you know, I think we've had some examples that at Divvy, and it's kind of been built into some of our DNA as well, which I think has been a big part of our success.

(Joel Beasley at 00:26:41) I know exactly what you're talking about. It's one of the reasons why I like this podcast so much is because the listeners have already gotten out of that. Like, they might still have a little pessimism or cynicism, but they've already gotten over the hump of I need to go learn from other bright people, and then that's how they find the podcast. They're either, you know, really frustrated they're at a breaking point or they're just they're at this crossroads moment, and so they do the search, right, to learn from some other technical leaders. They come across our content or they're talking to friends or somebody refers it to them.

(Joel Beasley at 00:27:11) And then they're like, woah. I can go learn from, you know, CTO of Divvy or NASA or Mike, you know, somebody amazing like yourself, and then they start playing the episodes, and they start learning like, woah. I'm so similar to these people, but we got, and then they can just, you know, move forward on their growth path because there's so much growing to do. It's like I was listening to someone talk earlier this week, and they're saying, you start out new and it's like you're invincible, and you think you understand everything, and then you get to the growth point where you realize how far you really have to go to be great. And it's like a paradox.

(Joel Beasley at 00:27:44) And once you get to that point that you realize how much work it takes to be great, then you get the choice. And that's like a becoming a big boy moment. Right?

(Greg at 00:27:53) Yeah. No. You, I'm actually really fascinated by that. It's I think what you described is the Dunning-Kruger effect. Oh, really?

(Greg at 00:28:00) Yeah. It's, uh, it's, I'd, yeah. I'm I don't wanna claim to be an expert on it, but it's—

(Joel Beasley at 00:28:05) Oh, you are now. You're the, uh, introducing Greg, the resident expert on the Dunning-Kruger effect.

(Greg at 00:28:12) I mean, really, it should be the Dunning-Kruger-Larson effect, I guess. Right? But no. Yeah. But from what I understand, it describes the phenomenon you're describing where the less you know, the more you think you know.

(Greg at 00:28:26) And so you're more prone to overestimate your ability or to think that you're doing better than you are. But then the more that you know and the more confident you become, the more you're able to recognize that there's more that you don't know or that there's more to grow. And so, yeah, I think that, you know, sometimes that looks like imposter syndrome maybe or that feels like you get lower confidence as you actually become better, which is maybe unfortunate in some ways. So it's good to recognize that, you know, it's okay to feel like you don't know everything. Like, it's if anything, actually, maybe a positive sign. Right.

(Joel Beasley at 00:29:01) It, I've never really understood the, I've heard a couple explanations, but I never really understood the imposter syndrome because I work really hard for the things. But I kinda, I kinda get it, though, because when you work really hard for a really long period of time, you just distance the point from when it was really difficult and you had nothing. And then entitlement can kinda set in or your mind can kinda play tricks on you, and you're like, do I deserve this? I mean, so I guess I kinda, I kinda get it. But on the surface level of the argument, like, when I first ran into it, I was like, what?

(Joel Beasley at 00:29:37) I was like, that just sounds like a bunch of privileged people complaining. And then I was like, maybe I should research this more so I understand it better because a lot of people are talking about it. So I think it's more nuanced than just my 30-second Google search.

(Greg at 00:29:54) Yeah, yeah. I think a lot of these things kind of come back to this sense of fear, and fear manifests in a lot of different ways.

(Greg at 00:30:04) And sometimes for people, it's the fear of being wrong because maybe they take a lot of pride in their own ability to be right, or maybe they're afraid of being wrong because of how other people will suddenly see them and they'll lose that clout or credibility or whatever it may be. And so, yeah, I think that may be just one of the many ways that fear manifests itself in different people in different situations.

(Joel Beasley at 00:30:26) You've got to stomp that fear out.

(Greg at 00:30:28) Yeah, and honestly, sometimes it sounds too easy, but in practice, obviously, it's a lot harder. But a lot of times, you really just have to stop yourself from dwelling on something like that. I've definitely learned as a technical leader, especially as an executive, there's a lot more pressure.

(Greg at 00:30:47) There's a lot riding on decisions that you make and the performance from you and your team. And so, yeah, stakes are high, pressure's high, and that can crush someone. I've seen it crush people where it is just too much. And again, it seems almost too trivial to even be considered good advice, but in a lot of ways, sometimes you really do just literally have to stop it at least.

(Greg at 00:31:11) You just have to put it out of your mind and say, I don't need to have fear around this, or I don't need to worry about this. And again, sometimes it's maybe I need to go write that down and create a task to do something about it. But then I have to be very conscious in my thoughts saying, okay, stop thinking about it. Stop dwelling on it.

(Greg at 00:31:30) Stop worrying about it. It's no longer productive, so just eliminate it. Don't even entertain it.

(Joel Beasley at 00:31:36) Tell me if you find this to be true at all, because it's something that I've kind of been experiencing, so I want to check it against others. So being that executive and going through those cycles, right, the cycles of things being okay and then things getting unbearably crushed and then you choosing not to give up and then things get better. And after it happens through enough cycles and you never give up on any of them—like, you want to, you'll get to the edge, but you don't—you realize that this is a part of the process. And then that gives you kind of the ability to relax during the next storm a little bit because you begin to understand this is just something that happens. And I guess you get more mature with it and you learn better how to deal with it, and you learn better how to control your mind and rationalize and understand. But, yeah, for me, what's helped a lot is faith that it's all going to work out because you feel like the world's ending, but then it doesn't.

(Joel Beasley at 00:32:43) And the universe gives a little bit, right? And you make it through it, and then you grow a little bit. And then you feel like the sky is falling again, and you just kind of realize that this happens.

(Greg at 00:32:54) Yeah. No, I think there's definitely an amount of steadiness that comes with experience, just like you're saying. And especially for the executive type of leader. I would even say for engineers, you know.

(Greg at 00:33:05) I think COVID-19 rocked a lot of people, and I don't think anyone has experience on their resume for handling global pandemics. But I think that it brought with it a lot of challenges that I know on my team, I saw our more experienced team members exercise a higher level of steadiness. Kind of like you said, they see it not as less of a problem. Like, they're not concerned about solving the problem or mitigating issues or whatever that come their way. But it's, yeah.

(Greg at 00:33:35) I think to your point, they have that faith or that confidence that, yeah, we can do something about this. We'll grow from it. I think, as silly as it sounds when you're in the middle of it, when people are like, look at this as an opportunity, you're like, thanks. Yeah.

(Greg at 00:33:50) This is—

(Joel Beasley at 00:33:51) I love that. Exploitive. Exploitive. Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh.

(Greg at 00:33:54) Exactly. But I think there's a lot of truth to that, where if you can look at the hard times as, hey, this is an opportunity where we're being presented with a problem that we can solve and that we're going to solve. And again, it kind of comes back to that, are you successful and are you acting successful? And sometimes you've got to, again, kind of go back to faking it until you make it a little bit more to say, like, okay.

(Greg at 00:34:16) Like, don't give in to the fatalism and say everything's terrible, let's give up. But more so, no, we're successful. And this is either an issue that's kind of come our way that we're going to have to do something about, or maybe we kind of brought this issue upon ourselves.

(Greg at 00:34:32) But it's not because we're terrible. We've got to fix some problems, and we're going to because we're successful, because we're better than that.

(Joel Beasley at 00:34:39) Absolutely. And then always cross-referencing that feeling with the actions that you're taking and ensuring that the actions you're taking are helping to mitigate that feeling. Like, you don't want to end up there again. So let's put into play a series of actions that'll keep me from getting there again.

(Greg at 00:35:00) And you've got to just grow.

(Joel Beasley at 00:35:01) A little bit. That's why I think leadership stuff is so interesting because I've been on both sides where I've been the engineer and I've been the leader. And it's funny how some of the perspectives can be, and it's like, what do they do? Well, I mean, they kind of get paid to eat glass and stare into the abyss, as Elon Musk calls it, right?

(Joel Beasley at 00:35:20) Like, it's painful and it's difficult, and you can't go sit down and write the code to solve the problem. You just have to grow that environment with the right team to get to the next step.

(Greg at 00:35:32) Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's one thing that, again, at Divvy we kind of start early with. We have the mentality that we're not going to get together as an exec team and talk about our wins, because though we should celebrate those, we're going to get together and talk about our problems because that's our job—to solve problems.

(Greg at 00:35:50) And we shouldn't be worried about that or scared about that. And I think that when I, for example, am interviewing leaders to join the engineering team here at Divvy, it's always a bit of a red flag for me if we ask questions and they're hesitant to talk about their mistakes or problems or issues that they've had to deal with. Because either it shows that they haven't had experience going through those, which maybe seems kind of odd unless they've just worked at perfect companies, I guess. Or they're not facing them. They're not taking them head-on and playing that part, because it is part of the job. Like, it's what we're here to do.

(Joel Beasley at 00:36:26) Yeah. It's always interesting trying to evaluate someone's level of persistence. How hard are they going to work through the challenges that they face?

(Joel Beasley at 00:36:36) How are they going to get through the walls that they encounter?

(Greg at 00:36:40) Yeah. It's really hard to vet leaders in interviews because a lot of those kinds of skills and attributes and things are a lot harder to draw out in that situation or to quantify. Like, there's no programming assessment you can give them that is like a leadership assessment. So, yeah, it's definitely hard.

(Joel Beasley at 00:37:00) It is hard. One of the things that I was playing with recently—it's not something I do all the time, but I was exploring it—was I was asking people in interviews what the most difficult thing that's happened in their life was. It's amazing the spectrum of stuff that you get, from one time my car wouldn't start to very seriously traumatic situations. And then I'm always curious, like, what did you take away from those situations? And I find that the people that have—and I'm not saying that it's a requirement that everybody have incredible trauma in their life—but I find people that have had significant trauma and have chosen to overcome that trauma and not let it define them and instead let it empower them, they typically have a higher level of persistence.

(Joel Beasley at 00:37:48) It doesn't mean they're the best programmer in the world. This is just speaking to their personality.

(Greg at 00:37:54) Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, that makes a lot of sense. And I think that, you know, I was actually just talking about this with Blake, our CEO here at Divvy, about how you should look at the hard things.

(Greg at 00:38:06) Again, not that you would necessarily wish them upon yourself. If you can avoid them, great. But they're going to come. And when they do come, you should look at them as opportunities for growth.

(Greg at 00:38:16) And I think that's important. Like you said, you can make that choice to grow through it or to maybe just survive through it or run from it even. But growing through it will, I think most times, like you're saying, make you a stronger person out on the other end.

(Joel Beasley at 00:38:33) And I also like that you mentioned that you asked them that because you can see how adept they are at talking about it or describing it. Because it's one thing to have been through something and to experience it and to overcome it. It's another thing to have the words to explain it and describe it and have conversation around it.

(Greg at 00:38:52) Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, again, we're problem solvers, leaders, and engineers, and so we have to be able to communicate and talk well about problems.

(Joel Beasley at 00:39:01) So let's talk about them. I'm curious to know, like, what is one of the biggest problems that you overcame during your hypergrowth phase?

(Greg at 00:39:12) Yeah. I think that I would say one of them was—and it seems like it's probably a smaller problem, but it's something that I think is easy to take for granted because it is seemingly small—and that's that as we're growing fast and we're moving fast, we don't have as much time to, or at least we don't give ourselves as much time to, make sure maybe we're communicating and aligning on things as clearly as we probably need to.

(Greg at 00:39:46) And so a good example of that is, for example, if we're telling teams, hey, there's this opportunity. You know, speed is our advantage here. We're breaking into this market, so to speak, or we're the ones first to market for this innovation. So, you know, speed is a big asset, so we have to go fast. And, you know, we'd often say from top down, all the way through the ranks, people would be saying, let's go fast. And as simple as it may seem, everyone started interpreting that differently, where go fast meant different things to different people.

(Greg at 00:40:13) To some, it would mean go faster than how we've been going, which, again, maybe they interpret our pace as medium, or maybe they already felt like we were going at breakneck pace. To others, it meant go fast with—almost recklessly fast, like, with no cause or regard for quality or for tech debt or for anything like that. Others assumed that, you know, go as fast as we should really pragmatically go. So, you know, there's maybe more nuance to that, and they would consider that. What we ended up with is we were all saying, go fast.

(Greg at 00:40:48) Right? And everyone's kind of like, uh-huh. Yep. Okay. Let's go fast.

(Greg at 00:40:51) And then we all went fast, and that looked like very different things. And it turns out we're misaligned. And so it's really important to—I think that it's a good example where definitions matter a lot. And explaining more about what you mean and not taking even simple things for granted in your communication. Like, what does it mean to go fast?

(Greg at 00:41:11) I was just explaining this again to my team about, you know, when we say things like this, what do we mean? Like, how do we clarify and get aligned on what it means to go fast? Because for us, we want to go as fast as we can, but we don't want to go fast in such a way that compromises quality, for example. And the two aren't mutually exclusive. I think you can actually get more quality by going faster.

(Greg at 00:41:35) But there are some trade-offs at some point where if you go fast in a certain way, like, if you choose to say, well, I could go faster if I stop testing. Okay. That is one way to increase speed, but not in a way we would ever choose to. Right?

(Greg at 00:41:48) Like, let's not do that. That's not acceptable. And so, yeah, that's one of those things. Actually, I have a friend who has another kind of interesting career path.

(Greg at 00:42:00) He grew up in a family with deaf parents. And so he learned American sign language, you know, kind of from day one, probably kind of his primary language in many ways. And early in his career, he was an interpreter, interpreting for ASL. And I think he worked at a company, you know, managing a team of ASL interpreters.

(Greg at 00:42:19) And one day was approached with an opportunity to basically be the head of a sales team, to go be VP of sales at a SaaS company or something. And he was telling me this, like, I don't know what they saw in me that made them think, like, ASL interpreter, perfect sales leader. Let's go. But he's like, you know what? And I think he's got some good sales chops, of course, but it was kind of a different, like, a pivot for him.

(Greg at 00:42:41) And he was reflecting on, like, you know, so what do I take from my experience to be great here? And one of the things he pointed out, which I thought was really interesting, is was kind of this point. He said when you're an interpreter, you pay a lot of attention to the words that you're using and what they mean and how they're going to be understood by people.

(Greg at 00:43:06) Because communication is not the same as understanding. And so you have to be really careful and deliberate. And he said that he would try to do a lot of that when he would talk to his sales teams, and sure enough, it made a really big difference. And so I think it's a good reminder for me and for the leaders in working with our teams to be maybe more conscious of the words that we're using and what effect they'll have on people and how they'll be understood. Because again, I think it's really easy as a leader to feel like, all right, check the box. I communicated. So, you know, message received, off everyone goes. But do they understand it?

(Greg at 00:43:36) And is their understanding aligned with your understanding? Because you can communicate till you're blue in the face, but if there's not the right understanding, then it doesn't really matter as much.

(Joel Beasley at 00:43:47) Yes. Yeah. You preach, man. There's like eight things I want to reply to. So the first one would be the sign language as a primary language.

(Joel Beasley at 00:43:54) I fully believe that it can be, because my kids, we could teach them sign language before they could speak. That was something the schools, the daycares taught us. Like, they could ask for more and everything like that with what they needed.

(Joel Beasley at 00:44:06) And so I thought it was mind-blowing because I could sit there and communicate to them with sign language, but they don't even have words really yet. So that was interesting. But then when you were talking about too, about the communication and understanding, it is something that's interesting because what will happen—or something I noticed with myself, I love to use myself as the guinea pig all the time—is that I see that empathy and the similar to the analogy to the communication, but as a verb. Right?

(Joel Beasley at 00:44:38) So it's an action. It's something that you do, to communicate. We'll say, oh, I communicated. And what you're really normally saying is I told them. I typed words to them or I sent a sentence to them.

(Joel Beasley at 00:44:50) But it's like, did you communicate like a verb? Like, did you work with them to achieve an understanding that you both have? And so what was happening with me is that because I host the podcast, because I write, because I go do speaking gigs and things like that, I had this underlying thing that like, I'm really good at this communication or really good at empathy because I focus on it from time to time, and I do it intentionally from time to time. But realizing that it's something that has to be done in every moment and every interaction. Now realistically, as it plays out in the real world, you're not going to do it like that every single time.

(Joel Beasley at 00:45:31) It would just be impossible. But at least having some awareness that it's not something that's just happening as a default background process and when the moment arises where you need to make sure the communication happens, go look up some of those tools and remind yourself of what you can do to ensure that. But back to your problem thing with the word fast, what happened that allowed you to realize this fast thing was a, this misinterpretation of fast was creating chaos or not good?

(Greg at 00:46:07) Yeah, I think one of the things that we've seen from time to time is earlier on, we were going fast, and we saw some good results of, hey, we're getting stuff out the door on time. We're moving forward on features and things like that. But then later, we saw like there's maybe some tech debt in us maybe cutting corners or maybe, you know, copying pasting, maybe not literally, but some practices that we actually wanted to change. And we didn't have time to reassess and say, maybe this isn't the way we want to build this.

(Greg at 00:46:38) It was more just like, hey, it looks like someone did it this way. I'll just keep doing it the same way because we're just, we've got to just go, right? This is the tool that I have, so I'm going to keep using it.

(Greg at 00:46:48) And so at that time, it came up where we saw that the development velocity was starting to slow down because we had gone too fast in some ways where we're accruing too much like tech debt, for example. In other ways, more recently, we've seen that we've gone too fast, and that again, that wasn't interpreted the same way of what that meant by all leaders and all engineers and others. And that resulted in some quality issues where we were going fast and some even believed, like, you know, this is a really critical business objective, so we might have to actually compromise on quality, which could be a decision that can be made, right? It wasn't necessarily the one that we consciously made.

(Greg at 00:47:30) And so it was a surprise when, shoot, like, we're seeing some quality issues that we're not happy about. And so, again, it first starts with, okay, are we actually aligned on our understanding of what it is to go fast and how we're going to choose to go fast? And so that's where we had to reset that.

(Joel Beasley at 00:47:47) And so what was the actual actions that happened? Did you sit down, realize this is a problem, understand it, write up like a definition for fast, and then have like an all hands of it? Like, how did you solve the fast problem tactically?

(Greg at 00:48:01) Yeah. I mean, all the above. So we did write actual definitions and things and said, like, here's what it means when we say fast. Here's what we're never going to compromise on, like, with quality and things like that and practices that we always want to be there. We had an all hands where we talked about it. We had a couple all hands even actually. And then really a big part of it again is it, all of that won't matter if it's not really getting down into where the engineers who really, they're the important ones. They're the ones that have to really own this at the end of the day, and so we have to do everything we can to empower them. And so making sure that their leaders, their managers are helping them have that understanding of things. And then having the tools and everything, again, to go fast and to do it in the way that we all agree we want to go fast.

(Greg at 00:48:48) And one of the ways I kind of explained that actually, and I have kind of a reputation for always using analogies, especially like racing or Formula One analogies because I'm a big Formula One fan, is I use this analogy of an engine where our engine is the development engine of delivering features and things. And, you know, if you go jump in a car, every engine has like a red line where that's basically the imposed limiter to just say, you can go up to this fast. If you go past this, though, things will start to break.

(Greg at 00:49:21) And we maybe were going past our own red line to where things were starting to break. And again, it's not to say that the only solution is, okay, slow down. In a lot of ways, it's actually well, we want to go fast. And again, we believe that speed and quality are not mutually exclusive, but that doesn't mean that they can both come for free. And so if we want to keep going fast, but we want quality to stay higher, then we've got to do the work to, you know, make it a stronger, more robust engine so that that red line increases.

(Greg at 00:49:48) So we can keep a sustained higher pace, but still within the limits of where we're safe, where we're still ensuring we're high quality.

(Joel Beasley at 00:49:56) I love that analogy. You could take that so far too. So what's your favorite racing team?

(Greg at 00:50:04) Oh, I have to say Ferrari. That's who I've been rooting for for a bit. If it's especially for Formula One, they haven't been having the best season, so it's been a trying year as a Ferrari fan. I'm actually excited too, though, because in endurance racing, so I'm one of those nerds that watches like the 24 Hours of Le Mans, which is a 24-hour straight race, and I'll often watch 24 hours of it, sometimes falling asleep in sections or not. But Aston Martin's a big, I'm a big fan of the Aston Martin racing team in Le Mans and endurance racing.

(Greg at 00:50:38) They're actually coming to Formula One, so I might be switching and cheering for Aston Martin in the future.

(Joel Beasley at 00:50:43) Oh, nice. I was actually doing some interviews with some CTOs that were connected in that industry, and we had some interesting conversations about, what is it called? Like, booth time or is there some time where, like, how much, I'm going to butcher this. It was essentially how much digital modeling that they were allowed to do. Oh, yeah.

(Joel Beasley at 00:51:04) There's like limits.

(Greg at 00:51:05) Wind tunnel time. Yeah.

(Joel Beasley at 00:51:06) Yeah. Yeah. There you go. There's one, like, wind tunnel time, but it was, there was something related to like, I think the like 3D modeling or some sort of performance modeling because, you know, we've got AI entering these things now, right? And so they're going to impose limits on all aspects of it in order to try to make it as fair of a competition as possible.

(Greg at 00:51:27) Yep. Yeah. It's like one of the cost cutting measures to let, you know, the lesser funded teams still be competitive in things. And that's actually one of the things I really love about the sport of Formula One and a lot of other motorsports is it combines this like engineering with competition and athleticism. And they have like these constraints.

(Greg at 00:51:46) And to see the creative solutions that teams come up with is like mind blowing. Like, they'll do the most creative interesting things to try to really push the limits of what they're allowed to do. It's, I think it's really inspirational because, again, like, a lot of times we will box ourselves in and say, like, well, here's only what I'm like capable of doing right now in my situation. So I really can't be that much greater. But, you know, again, like, some of these Formula One teams, that's like nonsense to them.

(Greg at 00:52:12) They're like, this is the box we have to operate in, but it doesn't dictate how fast we can go. We can be creative and work around, you know, some of those barriers or limits.

(Joel Beasley at 00:52:21) Do you have any family in racing, or have you ever driven one of those cars?

(Greg at 00:52:26) I don't have any family in racing. In fact, I'm kind of the only, well, I guess my wife watches it quite a bit with me too. She's a big fan. We've gone to some races. I'm kind of the only one in my family that really loves motorsports like that. I haven't driven like an open wheel racing car. It'd be an experience to drive something like a Formula One car. I have driven like a few like supercars, like Ferraris and Lamborghinis and things like around a track and whatnot. So, yeah, it's a lot of fun.

(Greg at 00:52:53) That's a whole different hobby too.

(Joel Beasley at 00:52:55) My grandfather was into boat racing.

(Greg at 00:52:58) Oh, cool.

(Joel Beasley at 00:52:59) Wow. Yeah. He won the world championship in 1988 with Don Johnson. Oh my god. Yeah. Cigarette boat racing.

(Greg at 00:53:08) Yeah. Yeah.

(Joel Beasley at 00:53:09) So like growing up, I was always like on the docks and around all the boats, and so that smell of the motors and everything is like, and man, the amount of, those are dangerous sports, but I'll tell you what, the adrenaline you get from that, even just being around it is so real when you feel the pressure of the sound on you and you hear the motors and that it just does something. I get why people are like really, really into it.

(Greg at 00:53:36) Yeah. It's, it's kind of funny because I had a friend who, I was driving an older car, decided to get a newer car, and it was kind of a sporty Audi that I ended up getting. So it was a little bit faster and fun. And I remember I showed up to work with it, and he was like, why would you spend money on a car like that? Like, just get something that gets you from point A to point B.

(Greg at 00:53:57) And, you know, like, a week or two later, we go to lunch, and I'm kind of hooning a little bit in it, you know, going a little bit faster. And he's like, okay. I get it.

(Joel Beasley at 00:54:04) Yeah.

(Greg at 00:54:05) Yeah. This is a lot of fun. So.

(Joel Beasley at 00:54:08) Oh, yeah. So let's talk a little bit about inspiration here as we start to wrap up. So you're a leader of this company. It's grown from 13 to over 300. And so people look to you, all responsibility. You did get the time to become that, right? Like, it's not like you just went in from like never having managed more than 20 people to going right into like 300. So you had like a nice progression. But I'm curious, you know, how do you take care of yourself?

(Joel Beasley at 00:54:37) Like, how do you gain inspiration so that then you can help, you know, feed the team? Because you have to take care of yourself first before you can help others.

(Greg at 00:54:44) Yeah. No. That's, I think that's definitely important that you can't, my wife's actually a mental health therapist by like education and former profession. And she used to use this analogy with people that like, before you can give to other people, you have like your love bucket that you have to make sure is sealed so that it doesn't leak and then is full so that you can take from your love bucket to give to other, you know, other people's love buckets.

(Greg at 00:55:11) And maybe it's weird to talk about love buckets at work.

(Joel Beasley at 00:55:14) Like energy bucket.

(Greg at 00:55:16) Yeah. No. I think it still, yeah. The concept applies, right? Where just like you said, you have to be in a good place as a leader before you can take care of your team and things like that. And I definitely, I feel like that's people see it too. It's not just a matter of like, do you have the energy or the willpower to like do the work type of thing. It's also like, is it coming off of you? Like, when you're in meetings or situations working with people, is your kind of excitement or passion and whatnot infectious and like helping people feel kind of the same way?

(Greg at 00:55:49) And so I think for me, what I try to do to do that, because it's, I mean, it's a good question, is I try to take steps back like pretty deliberately and kind of like carve out time for myself where, again, it kind of comes back to that, like, you have to be very focused on, like, okay, I'm going to eliminate fears and things like that, those worries, the anxieties. I'm going to take a step back, and I almost like have to be very deliberate and conscious saying, hey, Greg, you get an hour to just dream, to just unabashedly like just pretend you're like the best CTO that's ever walked on the planet, and you've got the best team ever, and things are wildly successful, like more than you could ever have hoped. Like, just give yourself an hour to bathe in that.

(Greg at 00:56:33) And to just like, I don't know, get that kind of rejuvenating like drive, that passion, that excitement, enthusiasm. And again, like, you can't, you have to come out of that, obviously, and come back to the real world and things. But I think it gives you that like other side of, like, okay, like, break out of the mold, break out of, you know, maybe the problems that I'm dealing with and balance that back with, like, yeah, like, this is awesome too.

(Greg at 00:56:58) Like, there's a lot of things to be really excited about. And that kind of recharges the batteries. And, again, then you can go be a better leader for everyone else too.

(Joel Beasley at 00:57:06) I love that. I love it. I'm going to clip that. You described something that I've wanted to articulate for like a year. You just described like the proper use of imagination.

(Joel Beasley at 00:57:17) Yeah. Right? Like, it's like an intentional imagination because so I mean, when it's on autopilot, it's going to be protecting us, right? A lot of fear scenarios. We run millions of simulations in our head on multiple scenarios every, if somebody asks you if you want to go out to eat, you run a simulation on the experience and what the quality would be like before you answer, right? It's just very fast. And so what you did, what you described at least what I took from it was you actually will step back and imagine a much better scenario, like a perfect scenario or an ideal scenario, and then start to look at it like in a 360 way, and then you can figure out the gap between where you are today and how you could potentially get to that scenario. That's a good intentional use of imagination.

(Greg at 00:58:04) Yeah. No. I think it's—

(Joel Beasley at 00:58:06) Got to write a book, Greg.

(Greg at 00:58:09) One day maybe. Yeah.

(Joel Beasley at 00:58:11) We'll include that in our book then, you know, give you credit. Be like, this is Greg's advice on proper use of imagination.

(Greg at 00:58:18) Perfect. I'll take it.

(Joel Beasley at 00:58:20) Dude, this is great. We made a podcast, man. How do you feel?

(Greg at 00:58:23) Good. Yeah. No. This is always fun because, again, it's a chance to reflect, it's a chance to talk about things. This is a fun way that I feel recharged and rejuvenated too. So, yeah, definitely happy to spend this time and certainly learned a lot from you as well. So I appreciate it.

(Joel Beasley at 00:58:43) What's the call to action? You guys, your free product, people can go download, start using you, start divvying up money right away. Where do they do that?

(Greg at 00:58:51) Yeah. GetDivvy.com, and you can either request a demo or just get signed right up and start going. Free product. So, you know, get over there, get signed up, fire the other products that you're using, save some money on some of those, and use a better product that equips your company to spend smarter.

(Joel Beasley at 00:59:10) Excellent. We'll put links in the show notes, put links to you, put links to the website so they can sign up. And you have a fantastic afternoon, my friend. Okay?

(Greg at 00:59:18) Thank you. Yeah. You too.

(Joel Beasley at 00:59:19) All right. See you, bud.

(Greg at 00:59:20) All right. See you.

(Joel Beasley at 00:59:23) Thank you so much for listening. And if you found this episode useful, please share it with a friend or colleague who you think would get value from it. And if you have topics that you'd like to hear discussed on the podcast, either add me on LinkedIn or send me an email [email protected]. Every time I get an email or LinkedIn message, it absolutely makes my day and inspires me to keep going.