Magna CTO - Swamy Kotagiri

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:00) Hello, my friends. Today we are talking to Swami, the CTO at Magna International, and we discuss the benefits of taking time to unplug and reflect, creating a culture where everyone has an entrepreneurial mindset, and the benefits of diverse product teams. All of this right here, right now on the Modern CTO Podcast. Here we go. This is the Modern CTO Podcast.

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:34) Hey, Swami. How are you?

(Swami at 00:00:36) Good, Joel. How are you? Good afternoon.

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:38) Excellent. Is that how I pronounce your name?

(Swami at 00:00:40) Yes. You got it right.

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:42) Where are you calling in from?

(Swami at 00:00:44) A suburb of Detroit, Troy, Michigan.

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:48) Okay. That's home of the automotive nation, right? Everyone in automotive is out there.

(Swami at 00:00:52) There you go. Exactly.

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:56) So you enjoy it? What's the weather like there?

(Swami at 00:00:59) It's nice and good today. It's in the seventies, I think.

(Joel Beasley at 00:01:04) Yeah.

(Swami at 00:01:04) Yeah.

(Joel Beasley at 00:01:05) Yeah. I'm going to be up in the Chicago area next week. I'm excited to get out of the heat of Florida.

(Swami at 00:01:13) Yeah. I think usually it's the other way around for us. If you ask us in maybe two months, we'll be trying to save. We're trying to get out of the cold and let's go visit Florida.

(Joel Beasley at 00:01:24) Come on down. We love it here. Yeah. I'm a native to Florida, so it's just amazing how many people are not from Florida that are here.

(Swami at 00:01:34) Yep.

(Joel Beasley at 00:01:34) And I love it because it boosts the economy. It makes life good. I'm a fan.

(Swami at 00:01:39) Yep.

(Joel Beasley at 00:01:40) So were you born in Detroit?

(Swami at 00:01:43) No. I'm actually from India. I was born in a small village in India, in the South India. The province or the state was called Andhra Pradesh. I was educated in a different province, finished my engineering in 1990, worked for a couple years in India as an industrial engineer, then decided that I was going to go try the higher education. Went through the exams and, lo and behold, ended up in Stillwater, Oklahoma, in Oklahoma State University for my master's in mechanical engineering, 01/01/1993.

(Joel Beasley at 00:02:29) So did you always want to be a mechanical engineer or industrial stuff? As a kid, what did you dream of?

(Swami at 00:02:39) Honestly, at that point in time, I don't think I was that very clear. But if I do look back, I did enjoy trying to solve problems. In the Indian education system at that point in time, you have to pick your field of major. So I picked a combination of, it's called the MPCB, which is mathematics, physics, chemistry, and biology. So I had the option to write the entrance examinations for both pre-med or medical and engineering. The engineering admissions happened to come before the medical came through, but I did get both of them, and I stuck with mechanical engineering. I really enjoyed it. You had the choice to change after the first year, but I really liked the physical aspect of it, the design and something coming to creation, and just stuck with it. And I'm glad I did.

(Joel Beasley at 00:03:44) Maybe one day you'll make the bio robots.

(Swami at 00:03:49) It's funny you say that, right? One of the projects that we work on is actually trying to get the robotic applications as close to human dexterity as possible. We ended up seeing some applications in the field of medicine, like surgery. So we said if a robot can do surgery on a human being, I'm sure we can use those robots for other applications. And we started doing pick and place and inspection and so on and so forth. So if you have a chance, come by, and we'll show you some of those applications here now.

(Joel Beasley at 00:04:24) Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Have you seen the hands that are the chef hands? They can make food.

(Swami at 00:04:31) Yes. We have seen many types of applications in robotics, right? And the challenge of it all, I think we don't think about it intuitively. We pick a cup like this, and it's full of coffee, and it takes a certain amount of force to do it. But if I pick up an empty can, your hand automatically adjusts the amount of pressure you put in, and the reactive feedback kind of tells you how much force you apply and so on. So there is a lot of tactile, perceptive pressure, force, and all of that. So we try to incorporate all of that to see how we can find as close as possible to human dexterity in the feedback loop. So we studied a lot on the end of arm attachments to a robot for different applications.

(Joel Beasley at 00:05:27) That is really cool. So is that in the R&D or does that have direct application today in your business?

(Swami at 00:05:36) Oh, absolutely. I mean, Magna, as an organization, has more than 300 manufacturing locations in 28 different countries. So one of the primary uses is robotics, whether it's in making parts, in assembling parts, in joining technologies like welding, and so we encompass all kinds of activities. So we're a huge application user of robotics. So one of the domains that we try to address in our research and development is how can we effectively use them? Not just use automation for the sake of automation, but to improve efficiency. So that being one of the research domains, and we have all of these 300 facilities that are always asking for what's the next step. So that's one of the primary reasons why we look into robotics. So we started off on a journey which has different phases. One of the things that I just explained to you, we went to one of the institutions, academic institutions and saw some robotics and said, let's bring it. So on the first phase, we could pick and place. We could use the perception technology that's out there right now. So if you're from a manufacturing DNA, you'll know that robotics today, or in the past, I should say, are used to handling to a definite program. So you have to tell specifically, you have to go to this XYZ coordinate or follow this exact path and, you know, you put it. So it's a blind operation, and all this has to be programmed. What we're looking at right now is not be that specific and not to be constrained by saying the part has to be here. The part somewhere in that vicinity, I can use the perception technology. I know what part it is, what orientation it is. I can just go pick it up. I can see whether the bin is empty or not. So a lot of the things are avoided, and we're also talking about interaction between humans and robotics. So if a person comes into the path, it knows automatically to adjust that somebody's in my path. I don't have to stop. I can go around and do things. So some of that has been already applied in certain factories, and so their production cell's running, and we continue to evolve. What's the next thing? So it's easy to pick a part like this now, but if I have thirty, forty parts in all orientations and they're entangled, how do I separate them? Can I still do the same job? All that is the next step.

(Joel Beasley at 00:08:35) I have the mental image right now of Tony Stark in Iron Man when his assistant's helping him build the suits.

(Swami at 00:08:43) That's a phenomenal analogy.

(Joel Beasley at 00:08:45) Yeah, right? Because that's what you want. You want it to be assistive to what you're trying to accomplish.

(Swami at 00:08:51) Absolutely.

(Joel Beasley at 00:08:53) So you started out in product engineering there?

(Swami at 00:08:56) I kind of started off in what I call structural analysis, which is actually doing the mathematical modeling of different component systems, subsystems, and doing the virtual validation. I guess, in any field, that's a finite element analysis, as they called it. Went through that process, then I thought it was interesting not to just pass on the virtual validation to physical validation in proving grounds and testing. So I got involved in that. So you had both sides of it. If you felt comfortable with your mathematical virtual validation, then prove that it's good enough in the physical world. Did that for a little bit, then I was involved in the product release engineering side of things. Worked for a little bit in the component research and development phase. Spent a little time in actually the operation side, you know, launching plants and launching programs, which is a completely different world. It's not about thinking five years down the road, you've got to be thinking every five minutes, right? Very strict timelines. The final date never moves, right? When the car's going to go in production that day, means it's going to go in production that day. So that was a phenomenal experience. Then after I finished that, came back into the corporate strategy and technology. So I've been in this role since 2013.

(Joel Beasley at 00:10:34) I love the fact when I was looking at your profile, you've been there twenty years, and you've climbed all the way up from an entry level position to being the CTO of the company. So I know how that's an incredible amount of work, right? It takes a lifetime to have a lifetime worth of great work. So, I know people probably don't tap you on the shoulder and say, awesome job, but I'm extremely excited, and I respect what you've been able to do a great deal.

(Swami at 00:11:02) Oh, thank you very much. But, you know, I have to accept the fact that the organization is very unique, from my perspective at least, and that's why I enjoy coming to work every day. It's really truly entrepreneurial in its spirit. If you have a plan and if you have a path and you have an idea, most probably, you have the chance to go through it in this company. It's just not me. I've seen a lot of people who've come with me, and the ecosystem around it is built that way. Some of my mentors, you know, are people who work for me who have helped me get here. So I think that overall team spirit is what really makes you successful, and that's the uniqueness in Magna.

(Joel Beasley at 00:12:00) Yeah. Because, you know, I get to talk to a lot of companies of all different sizes. You are obviously a larger company. You have 173,000 people across the world. But I've never seen, until reading this company's description, you actually say 173,000 entrepreneurial minded employees. So that's baked into your culture then.

(Swami at 00:12:22) Oh, absolutely. I think there were some of the founding core values when our founder, Frank Stronach, did that. You know, he always believed that wherever the business is done, you know, the operating division or the operating unit, the management actually has a compensation structure that's based on sharing the profitability of what they do every day. So they are true owners. I mean, I like to look at it as the 300 manufacturing divisions really have entrepreneurs running each division. So that's kind of inbuilt into the system. So it's not just about a whole bunch of metrics. Yes. There are metrics, but, ultimately, it boils down to, are you accountable? Are you doing what you said you would? And if you have a good plan to take the next step, come talk to us, right?

(Joel Beasley at 00:13:22) I like that you create that channel that you say this is the path. If you have this idea, come talk with us and you're open to it. You're not, you know, I was reading Zoom. Obviously, we're on a Zoom call now. But Eric is the founder there, and he had been at Cisco or Webex or something. And he had been arguing for them to rewrite their platforms that they weren't good, and he couldn't get them to budge, and they didn't want to listen to his ideas. And they just said, no, no, no. And shut them down hard. And then he went and created Zoom, and Zoom ate their lunch, right? So the fact that you guys have a culture that's opening to that, that's only going to strengthen you as a whole long term.

(Swami at 00:14:03) Absolutely. I think one of my mentors, I worked for him when I came into Magna in the late nineties. He was one of the gentlemen who found that a plumbing fixture, a small company in Germany, used water pressure to create the shape into the plumbing fixture. And his thought was, well, that's a plumbing fixture, but we have this fundamental frame structures in SUVs and trucks that are two C sections that are joined together, which is inherently a closed section. So why can't I take a circular tube, pressurize it with water, and let it take the shape of whatever die structure that I have? By doing that, I don't have to have the process of putting the two Cs together, welding it all along, and as I input all this heat, there's going to be distortion. So he came up with this idea of taking the small plumbing fixture technology and creating five or six feet structural systems that go into the SUV subframe. And, you know, he came up with the idea, did it. At that time, Magna really didn't have a presence in that product. And right now, we're, if not the largest, one of the largest in the industry doing that product. That's one example of a person having an idea, taking it, creating a business case, buying that small plumbing fixture company, and creating this phenomenal product line. I mean, there's many more examples like that in Magna.

(Joel Beasley at 00:15:48) Now, have you guys, this is slightly off topic, but are any of your parts involved with the Tesla brand?

(Swami at 00:15:55) Some. Yes. We do supply some systems to Tesla too. I mean, pretty much all the major OEMs in the world, I think, we do supply different systems to. That's the other uniqueness of Magna. We have powertrain. We have electric, the ADAS electronics. We have seating. We have body and white and structural systems, and, you know, the other unique part? Magna actually makes the entire vehicle for OEMs, contract manufactures the entire vehicle. Right now, we make the part volume of the BMW 5 Series. We make the Jaguar E-PACE and the I-PACE. We made the Mercedes G-Wagon for the last thirty-seven years, I think.

(Joel Beasley at 00:16:46) That is very cool. That's exciting. In the public sector, I didn't know this brand, but after I started looking at this and seeing how involved you are in all the different automotive markets, this is unbelievable. What a cool company. That's probably why you've been there for twenty years, and you're so excited to continue to grow with it.

(Swami at 00:17:05) Absolutely. As an engineer, you don't have to be constrained to one system or one component. You get to see a wide variety of products, how they interface with each other and come together in a car or a vehicle.

(Joel Beasley at 00:17:17) I love it. I was reading your article on LinkedIn about, I think the sentiment was asking the right questions, and you were asking some really big questions at the end of the article, like, how do we eliminate traffic altogether? Right? That's a cool, that's a big thought. Like, I'm thinking teleporters.

(Swami at 00:17:39) Maybe a few years out there, Joel.

(Joel Beasley at 00:17:42) I know. It's very hard given the Earth is spinning and moving constantly.

(Swami at 00:17:46) Exactly. No. I think, you know, we are in interesting times right now in the automotive industry. I think the question that needs to be asked is how do you make movement of people or goods from point A to point B economical, efficient, and still keep it exciting, right? Fundamentally, that's the question. And if you address those three things of keeping the excitement, making it efficient, and still keep it economically viable, I think you address all aspects of the problem that we need to solve, right? And it's a big problem. So it's exciting times.

(Joel Beasley at 00:18:31) What does your team look like?

(Swami at 00:18:33) The teams, the way we work, each of the operating product line or product group has a very detailed, granular roadmap of where we are today, what's our market position, you know, how are we addressing the next three, five, six, eight years, right? The way the corporate R&D group functions is like a service. So let's talk about macroeconomics, right?

(Swami at 00:19:01) The price of oil or the availability of oil, or maybe some of the things that go into the cost and extraction of lithium and therefore the impact on the batteries. We look at all of that stuff and just kind of boil it down to this is what's happening in the world. This is what's happening in the mega cities. So how does it impact transportation very broadly? That's the first question.

(Swami at 00:19:27) If we understand that well enough or at least create a hypothesis, then we look into if that's real, if that's true, what's happening to us as Magna, to our product line? What should we be doing now, and how should we evolve? That actually feeds into the road map. But on the other hand, all the 300 divisions and all the operating groups come to us and say the I wish questions. Right? You know, I wish I could do this differently. This is ergonomically difficult or, you know, costing us a lot or whatever the reason could be. So we create what I call problem statements. Right? Which goes back to what I was saying is you should ask the right question, and then at least you can try to figure out how to solve it.

(Swami at 00:20:20) Maybe I'll digress a little bit and I'll give a good example. If you had asked the question, how do I protect the driver when the car rolls over or when it has an accident? The underlying assumption is that you have an accident. Now you're trying to preserve the passenger and the driver. Then you come up with the airbag and, you know, the restraint system and seat belts and, you know, how do I have the cage that's really strong even when it rolls over, it doesn't collapse and so on.

(Swami at 00:20:58) But if the question is, how do I prevent an accident from happening, then you start thinking about more preventive measures. And the presumption here is the accident is not gonna happen. Right? So the solution set is completely different. That's why I'm so focused all the time.

(Swami at 00:21:17) We as a team are always focused on, are we asking the right question? Right? Because you can find a solution to whatever question you ask. So I think we spend a lot of time on that, trying to say, one part of it is the industry is here and it's a long cycle. Right? The vehicles that are gonna be manufactured in 2023, 2024 have already been sourced and designed and so on. Right? So we should really have an outlook much further out than in other industries. So we spend a lot of time in saying, like I said, okay. If mobility really becomes a service and not an ownership model, how does it look like?

(Swami at 00:22:04) What will people look for in a product? Where should we be? That's the second biggest aspect of it that we try to bring. So either we add to the existing products or maybe say, you know, how do we disrupt ourselves, right, before somebody else does? And how do we create a different business model or, you know, a different way of supplying to the industry.

(Swami at 00:22:31) Most of the time, that's where we spend. And in some cases, like, whether it's robotics or something else, we see an idea. Maybe the technology readiness level is very low. You know, maybe it's from an entrepreneur who has a phenomenal idea. It's with VCs and so on. We work a lot with kind of an open to business mindset, where we say we take all these problem statements, we go to universities, we open it up to entrepreneurs. The whole idea is if you have a phenomenal way to solve this problem, come to us, work with us, and we can find whatever arrangement is mutually beneficial, and we'll help you understand how it can be applied in the automotive, how we can commercialize it, how we can scale it, and so on and so forth. So we do a significant piece of that over the last four, five years. We might have invested 300 plus million in different, you know, investments, the way I'm talking about. So all of that is done in my team, the corporate R&D team.

(Joel Beasley at 00:23:42) So that's like its own, that whole source taking problem statements and sourcing solutions, that's all done within your organization?

(Swami at 00:23:50) Absolutely.

(Joel Beasley at 00:23:51) That is very cool. That's exciting.

(Swami at 00:23:53) That's the fun part. Right? I mean, the real fun part of the job.

(Joel Beasley at 00:23:57) Yeah. Especially with the energy from the entrepreneurial individuals, and then you're smart enough to where you're bringing them in. Right? And you're working deals to where you get to just add that to your group, and then they're okay with it and they're attracted with it because you have those people already there. Like, you wanna be around people who are similar and like minded.

(Joel Beasley at 00:24:16) So that's like, your vibe attracts your tribe.

(Swami at 00:24:19) Exactly. Right? And not only that, we don't have to have a large team because we have this huge organization that has, you know, phenomenal expertise in the area they're in. So we really don't have to have our own team at the corporate to solve the issue. Let's say we have a, you know, we are trying to solve a powertrain problem. Right? We can go to the powertrain group and say, hey, here's a phenomenal idea. If it gets to scale, this is what you could have on your road map. I don't want to create a set of experts again as an overhead. Why don't you send me five, ten of your team members?

(Swami at 00:25:01) And they'll work on this idea, project, whatever, for a given amount of time. Once it's there, now you have the knowledge of this as it comes into your team. So I think this model is applied in the DARPA, you know, the defense where you kind of break down the problem, go to the experts, let them solve it, and bring it together. So it keeps a very agile team, and you don't have to create a big overhead, and you have continuity of knowledge. Right? As they come and work on it, and they take it with them. Right? So that's kind of what we try to do as a team here.

(Joel Beasley at 00:25:42) I love it. I'm taking notes. You see because an articulate explanation is worth so much. Right? Like, when you can say you break down the problem to go to the experts, you bring it back together, that's like a very clear visual of things that are already happening, but you wanna look at it that way.

(Joel Beasley at 00:25:59) You wanna look at it in that clear, simple way.

(Swami at 00:26:01) That's right.

(Joel Beasley at 00:26:02) With all of this like, to keep things clear and simple with all of this knowledge and responsibility, like, what are your thoughts on your reflection and how you take time to step back? How do you do that on a day to day basis?

(Swami at 00:26:15) I have priorities. Maybe I shouldn't use the word priorities. It's a priority. Right? I try to not just I, I think the entire team. I always like to say my top five priorities of the year are really that we come together. I actually write it down, and I circulate it to my, you know, my team members and say, guys, this is what I'm trying to think we should achieve. You guys all agree. Right? And we come to it, then it really becomes a priority or a task list, if you wanna call it, for the entire team.

(Swami at 00:26:52) And they take that and say, yep. It makes sense. Now I know what to do, you know, in my domain, and we work together. We kind of put this up every month, every two months, and say, hey. This is what we said we'll do for '19. And the kind of the top objectives of the R&D group haven't changed in the last six years. Right? We say we have to be indispensable to our product groups. How do we offer service and what do we do? So that's one of them.

(Swami at 00:27:22) We need to at least generate three game changer ideas. Right? That needs to be vetted out and, you know, tried in the gateway review process. We say we have to develop the technology road map and give input into the strategy. How do we become the face to the OEM customers and to the market?

(Swami at 00:27:45) Those large objectives never change. Right? So if that's what I wanna achieve, what should I be doing this year so it impacts 2023 and 2025 and 2030? And, ultimately, it breaks down to, you know, monthly and weekly tasks. I try to set up, like, a two or three hour blocks on my calendar once or twice a week where I try to be digital free, not have anything around me, be able to sit around and say, here's a question that I wanna think about.

(Swami at 00:28:23) Are we doing the right thing? You know, should we pivot? You know, step back a little bit, not the tactical. That helps me a lot, and like I said, I have a phenomenal team. It's just never one person. Right? All the people around me are very cohesive in the thinking. They're different. Everybody has a different strength, but the goal is very aligned. Right?

(Swami at 00:28:50) And if you sit in some of the meetings, you might think we're having a fight, but that's what I enjoy the most. There is no holds barred, right, discussions, and we come out. And once we come out, though, we are all going. Right? That's the one thing I've loved here. Just if there's one thing I have to say, the transparency and the ability to have that, you know, free spirited debate, is what helps get everything on the table.

(Joel Beasley at 00:29:22) Right. Because the last thing you want is people being quiet and going away and having opinions they didn't bring up or object. You want everyone to just get everything out, everybody feel that they said their word, their ideas are out there, objections, you know, put out there, and then we all decide on what we're gonna do and we move forward.

(Swami at 00:29:40) Absolutely. Exactly. And, you know, how do you create the team? Then the team, you need to have somebody who is really good at execution. Right? So the person always is like, okay. I like the idea. Tell me how you're gonna do it. Right? And there is the free thinker who pushes the limit.

(Swami at 00:29:59) And there is a person who knows how to articulate everything together. And there is this one person who always looks around the table and says, yeah, I don't know if all six of us are on the same page. Let's talk again. So if you have the right combination in a team and you have those personalities, that's when you really come together. And I've been fortunate to have that.

(Joel Beasley at 00:30:24) So how do you spend time, like, growing and mentoring your team?

(Swami at 00:30:29) I mean, I do spend a lot of time walking around, I should say. Right? At least, I'd like to think, and the real proof's in the pudding with my colleagues. It's not as much time in conference rooms or meetings. It's just sitting around a desk and talking through it.

(Swami at 00:30:49) And I always believe that to the extent possible, you should be able to give the big picture why somebody is doing what they're asked to do. Right? And then they see the overall picture, like, oh, I get it. That's where we are trying to go. Right?

(Swami at 00:31:08) That gives a sense of belonging in the bigger picture. I spend a little bit of time doing that so that everybody gets not just their piece, but how the piece that they're doing fits into the bigger picture. I love spending time with interns and college students, whoever come our way, because I believe it's a testing ground for them as well as for us. Right? They'd like to see what we're doing and why it's an exciting place.

(Swami at 00:31:37) And it's fulfilling sometimes to tell them that they don't have to make the same mistakes I made. Right? It's like, hey. Don't take that course now. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Do this project. Try this out. Then when you go and look at that equation, it will make more sense for you. That I really love doing if I can to the extent possible. So that's kind of how I would say I would spend my time.

(Swami at 00:32:02) I try to ask the question when people come and say what's my next step. I think it's fundamentally very important for people to figure out, at least to know what it is they want and be able to state it very clearly. Then most times you can have a plan to work there. I think we can only enable their dreams, but they first should be able to dream and articulate it very clearly.

(Joel Beasley at 00:32:31) So what advice would you give to someone who can't? Like, they don't have a clear vision.

(Swami at 00:32:37) Most of them, I think, have an inherent desire to achieve something. Maybe they're not clearly articulating it as a vision. But what makes you happy? Right? At the end of the day, that's what you should be trying to achieve.

(Swami at 00:32:53) I think asking enough questions will lead to somewhat, at least, maybe not a statement, but you can guess where that person will flourish and, you know, is happy. Right? All we can do is try to bring that to the surface. And then it's honestly, I believe it's very much on the individual to take accountability to achieve what they want. Our job is to make sure we take care of the hurdles and how can I help in the road map?

(Joel Beasley at 00:33:27) I like that. I'm a big fan of the individual ownership and discipline. I mean, that's just it's a requirement for all people who are achieving success. So and I like that you said, you know, what makes you happy.

(Joel Beasley at 00:33:42) And I also noticed that in your career, you said that, you know, you did some analyst stuff. You then did some launching some work in the operations facility. So what about trying new things? Like, trying different things, new things, and figuring out, like, what makes you happy?

(Swami at 00:33:58) Again, looking back, I think if you can put a smile on somebody's face. Right? And the bigger the smile, the more the number of people, I think you achieved what you wanted to, and it doesn't really only have to be technology. It could be technology. It could be a financial model. It could be, you know, ease of use of something. Every one of those things, I think, should, you know, should get you a sense of accomplishment. I mean, I always believe that nothing is negative. It's all positive. We just gotta find something that you can empathize and whether you're aligned with it.

(Swami at 00:34:40) People ask me, so why did you come to this country? Right? I saw a sense of freedom and I saw a lot of things you can take in your own hands, right, and pursue. Doesn't mean the other side was bad. It's just that my character or my demeanor, I couldn't do as much.

(Swami at 00:35:01) So I said, let's go try this. And that's always been my thought process. If something is not working out exactly the way you want to, it could be the system or it could be you. First figure out which one it is and then just fix it and move on. Don't complain. Right?

(Joel Beasley at 00:35:21) So as we start to wrap up here, what are you most excited about? What's putting the biggest smile on your face?

(Swami at 00:35:29) Oh, we are in an industry right now that's going through a huge disruption. Right? Whether it's helping the environment with electrification, providing additional safety with assisted driving, dreaming about, you know, fully autonomous cars in the future, phenomenal business models where people are talking about the hybrid of ownership plus mobility provided as a service. Just in general, I think we're in exciting times. Look at what's happening in the medical industry and the talking of life's hundred years of life is nothing. Could live a lot longer than that. So, like I said, all of the things around you, just connect the dots and there's no limit to the world.

(Joel Beasley at 00:36:18) I love that. Especially if Elon Musk gets his Neuralink going, then you can just save your state.

(Swami at 00:36:23) Absolutely.

(Joel Beasley at 00:36:25) Have you gotten to meet him yet?

(Swami at 00:36:27) No. I've not. I've not gotten to.

(Joel Beasley at 00:36:28) Maybe in the future. We're like I'm trying to set up an event where we interview him and then bring in, you know, 10 different CTOs, CIOs. So if we get that set up, we're looking at, like, the end of the year, beginning of next. I'll let you know and invite you out.

(Swami at 00:36:42) Oh, absolutely love to. I mean, that'll be a phenomenal experience, Joel. And by the way, I have a couple of offers for you. If you ever wanna see a phenomenal automotive tier one factory, call us.

(Joel Beasley at 00:36:56) Okay.

(Swami at 00:36:57) We have some interesting innovation challenges within the company where the employees get to come up with an idea, and we have, like, five finalists selected. They come and present to the management team. If you're interested, you could be one of the judges.

(Joel Beasley at 00:37:13) Oh, very cool. Yeah. We'll do that for sure. Yeah. I'll have Chloe connect back, and that sounds like a real good excuse, a real good time and place for us to meet. That sounds awesome.

(Swami at 00:37:25) Absolutely, Joel.

(Joel Beasley at 00:37:27) This is great. This has been fantastic meeting you.

(Swami at 00:37:30) Thanks, Joel. Same here. I read your bunch of articles. The book you wrote is on my list. I'm taking with me tomorrow into the plane.

(Joel Beasley at 00:37:39) Oh, nice. Yeah, it's a great personal story of me going from developer to CTO. And then we just, just before this call, we had a meeting with Jake. We're working on our second book called Tech Titans, which is the summary of, you know, culture, leadership, all the different things I've been learning from great leaders like you over the past two years here on the show.

(Swami at 00:37:59) Phenomenal. Thanks, Joel.

(Joel Beasley at 00:38:00) So I'll send you a copy of that when we have it out.

(Swami at 00:38:03) Fantastic.

(Joel Beasley at 00:38:04) All right. Talk soon.

(Swami at 00:38:05) Talk soon. Thank you.

(Joel Beasley at 00:38:06) Thank you. Bye.

(Swami at 00:38:07) Bye.