Jeff Haynie - CEO & Co-Founder at Pinpoint

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:00) Hello, my friends. Today we are talking to Jeff, the co-founder and CEO at Pinpoint, and we discuss how to communicate the value of engineering inside of your company, the most important aspect of a co-founder relationship, and how engineering performance management will change everything. All of this right here, right now on the Modern CTO Podcast. Here we go. This is the Modern CTO Podcast.

(Joel Beasley at 00:00:34) So tell me a little bit about Pinpoint. I secretly know a little bit because I met with Nolan and them, and when I saw it, here's how you got on the show. Here's the progression of things. I saw this category emerge, and then I saw Pinpoint, and then I was like, "Dude, that's the Accelerator guy." And then I was like, "This is awesome. Let's talk about Pinpoint."

(Jeff Haynie at 00:01:04) Yeah, and you met Nolan. That's impressive. You know, we don't let Nolan come out very often, certainly not in public. So that's amazing. Did you actually see his face, or was it a silhouette with an avatar?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:01:17) It was—

(Joel Beasley at 00:01:17) A silhouette with an avatar.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:01:18) You only saw Nolan through the demo. You can only see Nolan through the demo.

(Joel Beasley at 00:01:23) No, Nolan and I—sorry, I was gonna tell you what he actually did. He actually used the iOS. He had a teddy bear head.

(Joel Beasley at 00:01:30) The whole—

(Jeff Haynie at 00:01:31) Yeah, that's pretty similar. Yeah. Most employees aren't sure if he really exists, if he's our AI, or if he's a real person. I assure them he is definitely an AI.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:01:41) So we started Pinpoint after we sold Appcelerator and we took some time off and helped the company that bought us transition, because we were really—we're developers at the end of the day, both of us. And we've built several developer-oriented companies, and we were frustrated as we got to be a much larger company at Appcelerator, and then certainly after we got to see the acquiring company, how big they were. They were a lot bigger than we were, multi-thousand developers for the organization. And we were really struggling with how do you measure engineering performance? How do you tie outcomes of the engineering organization to the business outcomes that the business wants to achieve? How do you give engineering a way to advocate for what they're working on and what's important and why they're making decisions? I mean, why are we gonna go do this big React refactoring, or why are we gonna do the CI/CD replatforming, or why do we need to move to the cloud? You know, what are these sort of inherently intrinsic things that happen inside of engineering that impact business but aren't always easy to explain to business, and vice versa? You know, business helping engineering understand where business needs engineering to be and where it's trying to go. And so, how do you better build a language between engineering and non-engineering? And how do you really help engineering be better in performance and ultimately get the highest value? Engineering is more important to every company in the globe as technology becomes more and more important to every company of every size. And we think that engineering as a trade, as a profession, is super important, and we think there's time really to treat it as such and to provide engineering what it needs and to help engineering—ultimately, how do you help engineers build software better?

(Joel Beasley at 00:03:30) So let's talk about that "why" thing again. The moment the why gets lost—you and I are both engineers. I mean, we've been writing code for a very long time. And there's a point where you're like, "Oh, there's the need. You see it. You understand the why." And then you start turning that into specs and a to-do list and a way to get things done, architecting it out. At some point, the why is detached and lost. At what point is it gone?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:03:57) That's a good question. I mean, I think a lot of people don't even know the why. They focus too much on the how, right, and the when. When's always elusive for engineering, but we like to spend a lot of time talking about the how. I mean, a lot of the content—and that's sort of one of the problems I think we have as an industry. And this is not bad. I mean, it's not an indictment of the industry because I'm part of this, just like you are. We spend a lot of time talking about how things work. And to your point, a lot of things are detached from the why. You know, why do we do Kafka? And we talk about how it works and we talk about when to use it and things like that. But the why, especially from a business standpoint—a lot of people, and it's not because engineers don't care. I think it's quite the opposite. I actually think, you know, I had so many conversations with engineers that really want to understand how is the customer using the software, why are they using it, what are the use cases, you know, how is it working? They want to be connected to that. But I think, especially in larger organizations, it just gets lost. It's this big, usually matrix, especially in bigger organizations, and we have to do things because somebody else above us told us we have to go do that. And, you know, so how do you advocate for the things that you are doing that really do have that impact? And that's hard, especially for engineers, because a lot of times engineering is just looked at as this big black box, because it is. It is a black box. It's hard to understand. Even—I've been long enough in the industry to remember way before Agile. But, I mean, Agile is a great example. I mean, I love Agile. There's nothing wrong with Agile, but it's purposely designed to be opaque and to be malleable between teams. So think about it from a business person's point of view. It's like, well, is it a pizza box or is it a T-shirt size? And if it's a pizza box on this team and it's T-shirt size—now, that's helpful at the team level, certainly. But as you aggregate that up and look across an organization and look at it from a business standpoint, it's really, really frustrating. It's just a sort of really interesting set of opaque things that we don't really understand. We're always late. We always need more money. We always need more people. And it's this one organization that, while it's the most important in a lot of companies, especially software companies—that's the tip of the spear in a lot of companies, and increasingly more and more companies, even non-technology companies—it's still this thing that's we have Venus and Mars, right? How do you have a language between them? And it's difficult.

(Joel Beasley at 00:06:25) And so this is what caused—this is what inspired you to start Pinpoint. You're like, "We want to solve this problem."

(Jeff Haynie at 00:06:31) Yeah, we sort of said, we're engineers. If we're engineers, and we built—when Nolan and I started up, we built Titanium. I mean, you know, when the companies we like to build are—we like to build things that are directly relevant to us. And so when we started Appcelerator, we wanted to build mobile apps and applications, and we were having challenges. And we sort of said, we need a framework to make this easier and faster. And at the time, we were thinking about doing services and just building things for other people, which we did for about a year and a half. And so we built Titanium just because we were like, "This is frustrating." And then all of a sudden we started showing it to a bunch of other developers, and they were all saying, "Wow, this is equally frustrating to me as well. Can I use what you're doing?" And we open-sourced it, and sort of the rest is history. But it was sort of the same thing. We got to be a much larger company, and we felt like we were best equipped to understand how the technology worked. And certainly as founders and executives, we understood the why, but there was always this disconnect. No matter how close we were to the product, no matter how much we could communicate with engineering with other parts of the organization, there was still this very big disconnect often. And it wasn't because engineers weren't doing their job or they were off doing the wrong things. It was just because it's difficult to synchronize back to the why. Why are we doing things? What are the outcomes we're trying to achieve? And all the stuff in the middle is sort of part of the process. It's the pipeline, ultimately. And we want to optimize the pipeline because what do we ultimately want to do? We also want to build this new feature because it drives new revenue, or we want to build this new thing because it solves an automation problem that we have. Yes, as engineers, we care also a lot about the how and the what and what it is, because we care about our craft and we want to build good things. But at the end of the day, why we as companies employ engineers is to build things and to get great outcomes from what we build. And so we always felt like, if we're the best—in some ways, if we're the best equipped to understand and empathize with what's happening in engineering, better than really in most companies, better than anybody—what is it like in a non-engineering-oriented management team, or a founder or a CEO that isn't that way, isn't well equipped or isn't that close to what's happening on the ground? I mean, what's that like? We got that opportunity when we got acquired by this much larger public company, and they weren't at all technical—as a software company, but the leadership team, wonderful people, amazing business leaders, had no idea how this stuff worked. And so I spent—we spent—I spent a year in this transition, and Nolan and I were sort of thinking, trying to help them do their own sort of transition as a company, but also then looking at answering really simple questions as a business. Being an outsider coming into a new technology, I understood Appcelerator, but trying to understand the rest of their portfolio and how we could reconcile strategically what we could do, you basically have to talk to people. And talking to people—you get a lot of bias, you get a lot of different information, you get—it's just tough. It's long. It's hard. It's arduous. It's not accurate. It's not data-driven. And so, you know, we were like, "Man, this is—you know, if we look at sales, if we look at marketing, if we look at other areas of the organization, this kind of used to be this way in sales. It kind of was this way in marketing and PR. It's an unmeasurable thing. It's creative endeavors." You know, sales, a great example. I had this debate with my head of sales at the time. I was like, "Oh, sales is easy. We have revenue, and you know, you hit those numbers." He said, "Yeah. In fact, it's the hardest, because if you think about sales, I own really virtually nothing in the stack. I don't own customer success. I don't own the product delivery. I don't know how well we support the customer. I don't understand the procurement process of the customer itself. I really don't own anything, but yet I am solely responsible as an organization to deliver a revenue number to keep the business afloat. And if I don't do that or my people don't do that, number one, not only do they not get paid, but they also get fired after a few quarters." Now, I'm not suggesting that's the case for engineering, but if you sort of look at other organizations that used to be chaotic, used to not be at all data-driven, and every organization had their own process and specialty, I think engineering in some ways—we've always felt it's actually got amazing data. I mean, everything we do as engineers is tracked. If I write source code, I check it into a source code control system. If I deploy systems, I'm using a CI/CD system. I mean, everything I'm doing as an engineer has ambient tracking already built into our system. But none of that data is being used at all to really help create better outcomes and provide better visibility, at least to have conversations about what's going on. And that was sort of our opportunity. We just kept saying, "Gosh, this makes so much sense. There needs to be an engineering performance management solution. There needs to be that category, much like we have in every other part of the companies, emerging companies, because engineering is just too critical. It's too important." It would be like if the Dodgers went out and spent $20 or $30 or $40 million on a star pitcher and just said, "Hey, you're off on your own. Good luck. Let us know if you win some games." It'd be ludicrous. No, they're gonna surround that person or those teams of people with the best. They're gonna hire the best, and they're gonna surround them with all and give them all the tools, all the infrastructure, all the statistics—everything they need to be peak performance. And we should treat engineering the same way. I think it's a craft. I think it's important to our civilization as technology becomes more and more important, and I think we ought to treat it as such. And we also need to be accountable to the outcomes. And back to your original question of why, engineers want to know why. What are the things that I'm doing? How do they impact what outcomes the business is achieving?

(Joel Beasley at 00:12:17) Right. And then it also opens up the opportunity for how you can be better, because I was looking at it with Nolan and I was like, my first thought was, how do you game the system? If this is gonna report on quality of code, if it's gonna report on these different types of metrics, the first thing when I see metrics is, how do you game the metrics? And the coolest thing about it was, as we were exploring that idea, the only way to game the metrics is to become a better engineer.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:12:44) That's—Nolan and I spent a lot of time on this. You know, any system, there's always flaws in the system. But that's exactly right. We always sat back and said, can we create a counterbalancing system by which if you manipulate one thing, it actually either positively or negatively impacts another sort of counterbalancing weight, if you will? And what's interesting about that, to your point, is it actually starts to make you think about gaming the system in a positive way. It's not different than what happens in sales. If I game it in sales, I want to make more revenue. I'm gonna try to find—now, if you do things wrong, if the commission plan is not done well, then obviously, yes, you might have holes in that commission and you exploit it for maybe not the benefit of the company. Or in marketing, if you have the wrong signal and you spend too much money in one channel that doesn't actually produce outcomes, then, you know, maybe that's not necessarily good. But in all these things, I agree. It's, how do we create good behavior that really helps great engineers continue to rise to the top? And it's not really about performance of the individuals, although of course that's always inherent anytime you measure anything. But it's always that old quip.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:13:50) If I don't measure it, how do I know to improve it? I mean, I should be able to sit down with you if you're the CFO and I'm the CTO. I should be able to sit down with you and say, look, Joel, we really need to spend about a million dollars doing CI/CD, and we're gonna put this new piece of software in called CircleCI, and we're gonna really spend two one quarter really investing internally in automation so we can really—and what we're gonna get for that is we're gonna get better cycle times, we're gonna get higher quality, we're gonna be able to respond to customers faster. In fact, let me show you. We're gonna be able to actually do 500 more features six sprints later, and that's gonna drive X amount more revenue. So we could keep doing what we're doing, and we're gonna have sort of the results that we have.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:14:35) Right? Or we could spend some money and do some automation. Here's what we're gonna get from a business standpoint. And so that's an advocation of engineering to get better, you know, replatforming or better tooling or better infrastructure or making better technology decisions, but it's also then tying it to an actual specific outcome that the business can understand. Right?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:14:54) Now all of a sudden, my sales, okay, I can track that. I can understand what I'm getting for it. It's just not yet another tool you gotta spend. I don't know what I'm getting for it, and you can't explain it to me because it's too difficult. And to me, that's sort of the executive to executive or executive to senior executive, or boards that really is hard to do right now. It's a lot of narratives in our experience.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:15:16) A lot of "trust me." And of course, you know, we do. I mean, if I've got a board, if I say I need to do something, they're gonna trust me, ultimately, at least until—you know, at least until I don't do it a few times. Then they maybe don't trust me anymore. And the same thing happens in boardrooms and executive rooms. And then vice versa, like, if I'm inside the organization, let's say I'm a product manager or a head of engineering for a group or, you know, product.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:15:39) I should be able to do the same thing. I should be able to advocate up to my management or to my peers within my organization about what we're trying to do and what it's gonna impact. And I should be able to sort of tie that 360 to the whole organization. And I think that—to your point—great engineering is all about high performance. It's all about building better things.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:15:59) That's inherent in what we do as engineers. We're always refactoring. We're always trying to build the next best thing. Engineering is never static. It's always dynamic, always changing.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:16:08) That's what's cool about our industry. But with that, I think we need to sort of bring the performance side of this to bear and help companies really understand what we're getting for that.

(Joel Beasley at 00:16:18) Yeah. You're always wary of the person who wrote code a year ago and is like, "Yeah, that's awesome."

(Jeff Haynie at 00:16:23) Right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, as we know, there's technical debt.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:16:27) There's vulnerabilities if you don't have good distribution of code spread across the team, right? And you're sort of vulnerable as a company, or worse, I'm like the only engineer that when there's an issue that happens, I'm the one that has to get called on the weekend. Right? I can't go on—there's always those cases where I can't go on vacation, or I'm worried, you know, not to carry my laptop because, you know—and nobody wants to live that way.

(Joel Beasley at 00:16:53) Maybe me a little bit. No, I'm just kidding. Well, no, no. I didn't.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:16:55) Certain heroes wanna do that, but no one's—

(Joel Beasley at 00:16:59) Yeah. No one's spouse wants you to live that way.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:17:02) That's true. Well, no, that's true.

(Joel Beasley at 00:17:04) I don't know. I just was flashing back to carrying my laptop on vacation. I think that was less about being a hero and more about just loving to write code.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:17:14) Well, that's me too. I'm actually going on vacation in the morning, and I've gotten to—about 15 years ago I got to a point where I just no longer carry my laptop, which is funny if you know me. I work 24 hours a day, seven days a week mostly, because like you, I like to code even when I'm not working. I mean, this is what I do. It's my hobby, and so I'm constantly doing it. And people are like, "What? You're not carrying your laptop?" No. I mean, I'm going on vacation. I don't need it. So it's—I wasn't that way early on in my career and my marriage, but luckily I've changed.

(Joel Beasley at 00:17:48) Yeah. For me, it was after having kids. Like, there's—it's just like, they're so small for so long and you just—it's like, all right, well, first of all, there's no time because you're getting climbed on.

(Joel Beasley at 00:18:03) But, yeah. So I was actually—interesting topic because you mentioned it a little bit. You said performance, engineering management.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:18:13) I guess it—

(Joel Beasley at 00:18:14) It was one of the—

(Jeff Haynie at 00:18:14) Engineering performance management, I think, is how we're thinking about it. Who knows? The smart people at Gartner or yourself will come up with a really pithy name, but that's what we think it means. That's what we would call it.

(Joel Beasley at 00:18:26) I like it. I think it's super self-explanatory. But I was talking about it with Archana, which is the CIO of Atlassian, and she and I were like, "What do we call this category?" This is before I heard what it was called, because there's a couple companies coming out in the space. And the way you explain it's so logical. Like, the first time I saw it, I geeked out because as an engineer, I thought it was super cool, right? Doing projects in teams.

(Joel Beasley at 00:18:52) And I was like, "Oh, this is really, really neat." But then the moment you said—I guess the stickiest line for me is like, you could sit down with the CFO and have this conversation about strategically this office operating more efficiently than this one, or, you know, you could have a business build a real business case more than just a "trust me" or "that's the smart technology guy, we gotta trust him" type deal. I like the data-driven approach and the transparency. But we were talking about what the title is, and so I think that's a great working title.

(Joel Beasley at 00:19:25) Now, are you finding that when you're talking with new customers, like, the response—do you ever get people who are shy to buy it because it's like a newer category, or is everyone just like, "Oh my God, water in the desert," or like, "I'm so happy we have this now?"

(Jeff Haynie at 00:19:39) Yeah. I mean, part of it's confirmation—our own confirmation bias—because, you know, we talk to people that probably care a lot about this area. They don't know what it's called, and they don't even know it's even a category. They're just looking for a solution to a problem. And, you know, certainly we're—like any startup—we're focusing on early majority, early adopter rather, early adopter-type companies and category kinda leaders, if you will, that care about this.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:20:02) But, yeah, I mean, I think it's been fascinating. I probably talked to a thousand CIOs, CTOs, CEOs, CFOs over the last year and a half. At least a thousand, probably more, but let's just say a thousand. And I've only had virtually maybe one that said, "Nah, I'm good. I don't need to worry about this." And, you know, it's sort of like, it's sort of obvious.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:20:23) Right? I mean, you know, in fact, what the biggest challenge, I think, as a category or, you know, as a set of people trying to solve this problem is it's almost become sort of conventional wisdom that this can't be solved. Like, we've almost sort of, at least outside of engineering, sort of like, "Oh, yeah, we can't track that. I'm not gonna try. They tell me I can't." And even, of course, within engineering, you would run into people that say the same thing. "Oh, it's not measurable. You know? Oh, you just can't count lines of code."

(Jeff Haynie at 00:20:52) And of course, we would agree. Right? I mean, any single data point—it's like looking at a sales, you know, like it's like looking at a sales pipeline and said, "Oh, they had a meeting, so I'm gonna count that deal." And it's like, "Well, no. You're not gonna count one single meeting. You're gonna look at the totality of the sales campaign for every customer across every territory, across all the various factors in the pipeline, and then you're gonna forecast. You're not gonna just take any one single event or any one single data point." And so the—I think the challenge collectively we all have is that in some ways, on one hand, it's so easy to explain the need for this and you get an immediate response. But the problem is people not necessarily out seeking for it because they've—in a lot of ways—they've sort of said, "Oh, this can't be solved, so I'm not even gonna try."

(Jeff Haynie at 00:21:36) Now I think that's gonna change a lot. I would think, in my opinion, if we look out five-plus years from now, I think we'll look back and it'll be like anything else. It'll be like, "I can't believe we did it this other way." When we look at marketing, we look at sales, we look at a lot of organizations that way now. And I mean, it would be crazy for me, you know, if my marketing person wanted to go spend—which he does—wants to go spend a bunch of money in marketing, user acquisition, or whatever, for him to come to me with a plan that didn't have by channel, what do I think the MQLs are gonna be, what's the cost per conversion, you know, what's the effectiveness across the various channels?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:22:14) And where am I gonna place some bets? And where am I gonna spend money? And then what am I gonna get for that? Like, it'd be ridiculous. Right?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:22:19) And then to him to tell me we're not gonna track any of this. We're just gonna run these dollars, spend the money, and we're gonna hope for the best. Right? It would be crazy. I would say, "Go back and try again." Right? I mean, he wouldn't even, of course, come to me. But I think we're gonna look five-plus years from now, and I think it'd be very similar in engineering. I think it will—we'll look back and say, "Wow, like, I can't believe we did it that way. That's crazy."

(Jeff Haynie at 00:22:41) And so I think that's why this is such a big opportunity because I do think that it is so obvious, if you will. If we or others like us can solve this problem, which I believe we're far on that path, it's a massive opportunity for everyone. And all boats rise in this category.

(Joel Beasley at 00:23:02) And I love it too because one software alone—like, the fact that you guys plug into multiple softwares with all your data, it's like you have productivity screens essentially inside of everything, like, to some degree. But the thing that was cool about you guys, it's like a 360 productivity, and it analyzes all of the data to give you like this complete view. And when I saw it, I was like, "I need to let the world know this exists."

(Jeff Haynie at 00:23:32) Yeah. And I think what's cool is like, the super secret don't-tell-anybody kinda thing is, you know, we'll just keep it on this podcast, is that I think what happens is for our—our big opportunity, I think, is if we can make it easy to plug virtually anything inside the engineering toolkit, if you will, into Pinpoint. And then Pinpoint becomes sort of this uber business operations platform, if you will, both to help engineering, but also, obviously, like we talked about, outside of engineering. And I think that's a huge opportunity, and I think what will happen if we can be successful is we'll reorient the engineering stack itself—everything. And we had a play at this at Appcelerator with our marketplace and our extensions and our community, but it'll be a very similar thing here technologically, but a much different impact.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:24:16) If we can effectively become the canonical, if you will, data model for engineering, independent of what tool you use, and depending on what process you use, and depending on what language or technology, or how—you know, what location—that's super, super valuable, we think, and that could be a huge opportunity as a platform company.

(Joel Beasley at 00:24:33) So we know where you are today with Pinpoint and sort of how you got there from ex-Appcelerator, but I wanna take it way back. Right? The way-back machine. I wanna take it all the way back to, you know, little Jeff. When did you first fall in love with technology? What was the moment?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:24:50) Yeah. So the moment for me, I was 12 years old. I started with a TI-99/4A, so I'm of that generation. Sort of gaming was Commodore 64, Commodore 128, Atari. I saved up enough money and got some money from my parents and bought a TI-99/4A, funny enough, at Rich's. I don't know—that's a department store. I don't even know if they're around anymore, but they used to sell computers, right?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:25:14) This is even before, you know, sort of the Apple. And so my next computer was Apple IIc, and I was just of that generation of kids growing up in the eighties, writing software. I started writing software. I was obviously writing games, because like that was—as a kid at that age—that was what I cared about. That was sort of my worldview: games. So I created a little company called Bazaar Software, and we wrote a breakdancing game, me and my stepbrother. And we—back then you would sell things over newsletters basically. It was a Beagle Brothers newsletter, it was a couple other popular kind of computer geek newsletters, and that's how you would literally write in and send an amount of money to somebody, and you would get a—and in that day, it was a little tape, and you could play the game.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:25:35) That was sort of my love, and through middle school and high school, I just kept up in that way. And as technology improved very rapidly, of course, during those years, eventually it became the Apple, the Mac, you know, and eventually then the IBM PC. I just kept writing software. My parents owned a business, and so when I was in high school, I wrote some software for them to automate their office.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:26:33) They had typewriters, and I wrote software—I wrote a database software in FoxPro back then. Oh, yeah. Remember FoxPro? So I wrote a FoxPro application to put all their—they had filing cabinets of just files, and they would type up a contract and mail it in surface mail. Right? Mail it to somebody. They would mark it up, send it back, and this is a multi-month process. Right? And so I helped them put their database, if you will—create a database of all their people, their contacts, and their, you know, people they did contracts with. And then I helped them create a word processing template that they could put all their contracts in, click a button, fill out a little thing, click a button, it would print it, and then I got them a fax, and then we would fax it. And that sort of changed their business dramatically.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:26:51) They started putting a—it started off with like a standalone computer in the side that somebody would go to. Within a year we had computers in everybody's desk, and everybody had a computer, and that sort of became the way they worked. And, yeah, that was sort of my early foray as an entrepreneur and as building things. Did a few things for other people. And I kinda took a detour.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:27:42) A lot of my friends, of course, like everybody else, went into college right after high school. I went into the military. Oh, nice. I went into the U.S.—

(Jeff Haynie at 00:27:50) Navy, and I studied avionics electronics. So I was basically electronics warfare stuff in the Navy, and I worked on a flight deck of an aircraft carrier during the first Gulf War. And so that was sort of my training. I was still doing computer-oriented stuff. A lot of it was a lot more hardware at the time, but I was doing, of course, software stuff on the side while I was in the Navy. And then I got out of school, and I briefly went to college on a GI Bill for one year. But, of course, as an entrepreneur, I started a company in college, and I ended up taking a leave of absence to start a company, and grew that company, and then started another company, started another company, started another company, and here we are today.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:28:34) So I've never really been employable. I'm mostly self-taught, I guess I should say. And I've just been building software. When I say literally my whole life—I'm 48 years old, almost 48 years old. 47, I'll be 48 soon. I literally mean that. So I've seen kind of a lot of different stuff.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:28:51) I've pretty much programmed in every language, every technology, every kind of system, every kind of computer you can probably imagine.

(Joel Beasley at 00:28:57) That's amazing. That's so my start. My father would take me to work with him. He's an electronics engineer. He got his start because he had a bad home life, so at 18, he went into the Air Force.

(Joel Beasley at 00:29:09) And then they had education opportunities to become an electronics engineer. He did that, and then he did a big set of time out in Las Vegas at Nellis Air Force Base. And their big project, which came declassified a handful of—he told us about three or four years ago because it was like a 20-year classification—but they put the first GPS system into the B-2 stealth bomber.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:29:36) Nice.

(Joel Beasley at 00:29:37) So when you said aviation electronics, I was like, dude, my dad was on the team that put the GPS into the stealth bomber, and that was like a huge project that was super classified.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:29:48) That's amazing.

(Joel Beasley at 00:29:48) Pretty neat, though?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:29:50) It's pretty neat. Well, what blows my mind even to this day is like, I was in for four years during the Gulf War, and what blew my mind was the technology that we had in 1992, 1991. And I think about it—like, when I got out of the military, it just blows my mind how much technology and how much innovation actually comes from our military, or from NASA, or from these sort of types of government-oriented projects. It's amazing, and how far advanced they are. It's a little scary these days with all the things that are going on, but yeah, it's crazy.

(Joel Beasley at 00:30:21) Yeah. Your mind starts drawing parallels. It's like, they showed me this box in like the mid-'90s or late '80s. And it was huge, and they were like, "This is a GPS. Like, this is the GPS." And I was like, that giant, like, multiple foot by multiple foot thing is the GPS? And they're like, yeah. And I was like, wow.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:30:44) Yeah. And now it's on a little microchip that is in pretty much every device in the world. It's crazy.

(Joel Beasley at 00:30:50) So do you write a lot? Do you articulate your ideas, or do you speak?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:30:55) I do. I speak quite a bit. I'm not a great writer. I do write. I wish I could write more. I would say probably Nolan's the better writer. But yeah, I mean, I'm an expressive person, if you probably couldn't tell, so I spend a lot of time speaking or talking. Or I write a lot of code. So that's my level of expression—code, prototype, showing people, like, here's how it all kind of works, and that's how I do it.

(Joel Beasley at 00:31:24) Nice. Because I read your Medium article about the five things you do differently after a startup. So I was like, oh, man, I like that.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:31:30) That was super popular.

(Joel Beasley at 00:31:32) Yeah. And the thing that I like about it is I would say I'm a speaker first and a writer second, right? Because when you write and it sounds like someone's speaking, that's my favorite type of content to read. Right?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:31:44) That's me. Yeah. Yeah. I try to write like I would just if we were having this conversation, right? Because I think that's just the only way I know how to do it. I'm not a good writer. But yeah, that's just, you know, that's exactly right. That's how I do it, because I'm very similar to you. I would speak first. I'm very, very comfortable. I've spoken a lot over the years, but writing is—you know, I don't get to do that as often. It's harder.

(Joel Beasley at 00:32:08) It's way harder. Yeah. Yeah. Even when I take like Q&A sessions from the talks I give live, and I condense them into writings for blog posts just to have different mediums—I've trained my team to do it, and then I just kind of approve it and make sure the tone is really me and it doesn't get lost. But one of the questions we get from the audience a lot, and I'd say maybe 30% of the CTOs I have on are cofounders or CEOs or cofounders. But you and Nolan are cofounders, correct?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:32:36) Yes. Yes.

(Joel Beasley at 00:32:37) So one of the questions I get a lot—now that I have a cofounder here in front of me—relationships, incredibly important. But some relationship tips, some things that you and Nolan have learned throughout your career working together. Can you share some of the insights, some of what you've learned?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:32:54) Yeah. Well, first of all, we have an amazing relationship. This will be our 19th year working together in our third company. And he's an extremely special person, and I have the most respect for him. I truly think of him as a partner above all else, and certainly as a friend.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:33:14) What I think is great about our relationship and how we work together, which is sort of magical—I mean, that sounds corny to say, but it really is—we're probably the most different people you could meet in some ways. I'm an extrovert, he's an introvert. I like being in front of people, he hates it, obviously being an introvert. He's a good writer, I'm a good speaker. He's a great speaker actually, I'm an okay writer. You know, it's sort of like we have a lot of complements. He's phenomenal on the product, I'm phenomenal on the engineering and architecture and design. He's—again, he's a great engineer—and I'm good at product. So it's sort of like, what's interesting is we've just, for better or worse or for however—I don't even know how it's worked out—we just sort of staked out our own areas, and we figured out how to take the best of what we're both good at, and we're super happy with our roles. I mean, you know, there's never really been conflict. I mean, you know, you have debates, and we certainly will have knock-down, drag-out discussions. But in the end, we walk away unified. And we always walk away with a unified—even when we disagree, we disagree probably almost 98% of the time on implementation or different way of looking at it. It's not a fundamental disagreement. It's a disagreement about how do we approach it, or what should we do—this versus that. So the sense of how we move forward is always the same. And there's always trust and unification about what we're trying to do. It's just sort of different points of view, which we enjoy. That's why we debate it often, because we do have such different points of view that helps us come up with a better plan forward.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:34:47) And I think that's how we've been able to work this way. And we're really good at coming up with product, you know, because of this complement. I think because what I care deeply about, he's kind of okay to let me deal with it, right? Because he cares a lot less about those things. And what I care a lot less about, he cares deeply about, right? And those are both critically important to how you build a great product—the combination. And I would say rarely does one person have both, you know, in one body or one soul, have that. And so what you end up having is, like, you have other people, of course, that fill some of those roles. And so I think one of the benefits we both have too is we're both deeply technical, of course, but we're also deeply business-oriented. We can both go very deep in finance or marketing or other areas of the business equally deep in those areas, both of us. So that also makes us very comfortable. You know, even if I hand off something to him for a while—like marketing or helping me on sales or something because I don't have time right now—I'm totally fine with what he's going to go do. And vice versa, if I'm like, okay, I'm going to focus on this, and I need you to go do this over here, he's totally fine with that for me, and we can kind of easily move between these things. And that's, again, I think that's somewhat rare. I think, you know, a lot of cofounders—I don't specifically know what this is, but a lot of cofounders, you kind of have a business and a technology person, and that's sort of the—and that's not a bad trade-off. I mean, that's certainly a good trade-off. Or you have kind of two deeply technical cofounders, and they have a lot of overlapping skills. And I think we don't. So, like, where we're strong, we're equally strong in the business side, so that means we can sort of easily move in and out of that. And we're also equally strong in the technology side, but if we polarize it, I would go to the deep engineering side, and he would go to the deep product side. He's got a much more fascination and expertise around really thinking about a business problem, and really thinking about how do you express that in the UI, or how do we sort of suss out really what the use case is, and what the customer might want to do—the empathetic side of a product that you need. I, of course, care about those things, but I'm always going to gravitate towards how it works and, like, how do we make it scale and how do we kind of get a lot of engineers working on this and a framework around this so we can scale the engineering and all that. So that's sort of how we divide the world, and I think we've just learned to be, you know, both empathetic to each other, very, very trustful to each other, probably because, you know, that only happens over lots of time. And, you know, that's probably how we've learned to do it. I don't know how to teach other people or tell other people how to do this, because I've had a cofounder before, actually a couple of other companies, and it was sort of this—and they were wonderful people. So, but it was more of this business, and I was a technology guy. And it was sort of just a different dynamic. It wasn't a bad dynamic. It was just different. I think our dynamic is unique and different, and super, super powerful.

(Joel Beasley at 00:38:08) No, I tell you what, I've talked to a lot of people. I like that you've done the, like, the 1,000-plus, because people say, like, for me, it's like, yeah, it's like two or three a business day if you do the math out, right? But yeah, when you talk to that high volume of people and you get to hear, you know, maybe 40, 50 cofounders, the way you describe the relationship specifically on your skills and strengths, that was super unique. I was excited while I was listening to that. But the thing that was grabbing at my mind: what's the origin story? How did you meet Nolan?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:38:38) Oh, great. Great question. So I started a company three companies ago. It was a software telecom company. We both lived in Atlanta, and I had—it was a .com, and I had another company I had started that sort of flamed out during the .com. It's called eHatchery. It was a Y Combinator sort of idea back in those days. Of course, we didn't have a Y Combinator then. And I was fortunate that as the .com world was blowing up, I took a little bit of money, and we started a company called Vocalocity, which is a telecom, software telecom company. And Nolan was employed, probably five or six, as an engineer. So he joined us as an engineer through another person who kind of ran product for me, who had worked with him at another company. And so he joined, and I worked really closely with, you know, all the engineers. And so he was building out an analytics product actually, funny enough—kind of come round circle. He was building an analytics product for this company, and we just started working really closely together. And over time, over the probably six years that company—before we sold it was about six years old—he just did a bunch of different things over, you know, in engineering, obviously. And right before we sold the company, he was running a labs group, kind of an R&D labs, looking at innovation and kind of the future products we could build. And I just really enjoyed working with him, and of course I was working really closely with him, because I was driving a lot of the innovation. And we sold that company, and I really liked working with them, and so we just said, we should keep working together. Let's find a way to keep working together. And that's when we started Appcelerator. We decided, between selling the company—or, you know, after we sold the company, before we sort of started really kind of getting going with Appcelerator—we said we should consult, and we should build some apps for people. We wouldn't call them apps back then, really. So we should build outsource technology for people. We know how to build software. You know, we had a couple people that were with us from the previous company. And so we started a consulting company. That's what Appcelerator started as—a small little consulting company—and we had a couple customers that wanted us to help them build some product. And that's how we started it, and then very quickly we got into Titanium. You know, that was sort of the origin into Titanium, and we just kept working together, and we moved—immediately we moved to the Bay Area, San Francisco, that year. And then we just doubled down. That was 2007, we moved to the Bay Area in 2008. So, and at that point, you know, we just built Titanium.

(Joel Beasley at 00:41:14) Oh, I love it. And then I think you did give—like, as you're talking about your relationship with cofounders, you know, it's not necessarily like teaching people, but just the way you explain it, hearing what a successful cofounder relationship sounds like. It's like you want to take marriage advice from the couples that have been married 20 years, right?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:41:33) Yeah. Hey. That's me in two weeks.

(Joel Beasley at 00:41:35) Yeah. Twenty years?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:41:36) Yeah. Twenty years in two weeks. That's right.

(Joel Beasley at 00:41:37) Congratulations, my friend.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:41:40) Yeah. Thank you. I just tell people, I've known Nolan and we've worked together almost as long as I've been married to my wife.

(Joel Beasley at 00:41:45) Right?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:41:46) Yeah. Isn't that crazy?

(Joel Beasley at 00:41:47) What's her name?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:41:49) Her name's Ginny. Virginia is her legal name, but her nickname is Ginny.

(Joel Beasley at 00:41:55) Ginny?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:41:56) G-I-N-N-Y. Yep.

(Joel Beasley at 00:41:58) My wife's name is Michelle.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:42:00) Oh, nice.

(Joel Beasley at 00:42:00) Yeah.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:42:01) How many years? Oh my god. Don't say—we'll block this out. Jake's going to take this and just Jake's going to white screen this out.

(Joel Beasley at 00:42:11) Yeah. He'll edit that one out. Yeah.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:42:14) Two? Two?

(Joel Beasley at 00:42:14) Yeah. Yeah.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:42:15) A little bit more than two.

(Joel Beasley at 00:42:16) You got a little bit more to go.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:42:17) You got a little bit more to go.

(Joel Beasley at 00:42:18) I got a little bit more than two. We have two kids. We just had our second one, a little boy.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:42:23) Oh, great. Congratulations.

(Joel Beasley at 00:42:25) We got a 19, 20-month-old girl, Aria, and then a three-month-old little boy, Lachlan.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:42:33) Nice. Lachlan. That's cute. I like that. I have three. I have two boys and a girl. My oldest is 19. I have a 17-year-old and a 15-year-old going on 25.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:42:42) Yep, a girl, and she's fun. They grow up fast.

(Joel Beasley at 00:42:48) I know. It's amazing. You hear the whole daddy's girl thing or whatever, and then you don't realize how much you will love the kids till you have them. Like, you would do anything. It's indescribable.

(Joel Beasley at 00:43:00) Yeah, it's biological. You wake up at three in the morning, and she was having a nightmare or something, and it's just like, oh. And then you get in there, and then they stop crying, and they're just hugging on you, and you're like, "I am the hero." And then all of a sudden, it's worth it. It's like, what next? Give me the next challenge.

(Joel Beasley at 00:43:22) Yeah, man. That's exciting. And then you said you're in Austin. You're in Texas.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:43:27) That's right. Me and my wife moved here late fall last year. Nolan's still in the Bay Area.

(Joel Beasley at 00:43:34) Okay.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:43:35) I decided to move here, and then I brought a couple people with me. And yeah, we now have our headquarters here, and we've got probably—there's 35 people in the company. We've got about 20-ish people here in Austin, probably. Maybe a little bit more.

(Joel Beasley at 00:43:48) How do you like it there?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:43:50) I love it so far. It reminds me of when I got to the Bay Area, maybe not as big, but when I got to the Bay Area in 2007, 2008, it reminds me a lot of that. It's certainly not as big and not as many companies and all that, but it's really exciting and fun, and there's a lot of things going on in Austin. Austin itself, independent of technology, is such a cool place. It's sort of this diverse atmosphere of lots of people, lots of interesting things, young people, everybody doing interesting things. And so that's what I really like about it so far. It's really fun.

(Joel Beasley at 00:44:25) This year, I visited like, I don't know, 20, 30 cities, but I haven't got to Austin yet.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:44:30) Oh, you have to come to Austin.

(Joel Beasley at 00:44:31) Yeah. So now that I know you there, it's like, we'll bring the team out. We'll do some video. It's always good for a LinkedIn post and yeah.

(Joel Beasley at 00:44:39) Because I think it would be cool to see that city. I know we have some connections there, like, to the universities. We have some people at universities and the tech incubators there. So if you're not already connected to them, maybe that would be useful.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:44:54) There's some amazing stuff. UT is an amazing school. They've got a really good machine learning school, data science school—just some amazing stuff in Austin. It's also like, I'm traveling a lot between San Francisco and New York every month.

(Joel Beasley at 00:45:07) Okay.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:45:07) And I'm always on a flight going back to San Francisco, and I would say half the flight are Bay Area transplants that have moved to Austin. It's so funny. So yeah, it's a lot of people moving here. I mean, it doesn't hurt that Apple and Google and Facebook and Amazon and all the big ones also have huge plans or are already huge—lots of people here. They're building buildings.

(Joel Beasley at 00:45:29) Oh, they're cracked.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:45:31) Yeah. That's true.

(Joel Beasley at 00:45:32) That's what I was gonna say. Why did you choose to go out there? Did you hear Musk was building some rockets and Bezos was building some rockets? What made you choose? How did you put your finger on the map and you were like, "Austin?"

(Jeff Haynie at 00:45:43) Well, I'm an engineer, so, you know, I went through an engineering process. So I basically looked and said—some people might find this funny. So I said, "Okay, what state has low to no income tax?" You know, I don't want to pay any more than I've already had to pay. And because I do travel back and forth between the coasts a lot, I wanted to be somewhere equidistant, ideally. And Austin's great because I can get to New York or I can get to San Francisco in three, three and a half hours in either direction.

(Joel Beasley at 00:46:07) Really?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:46:07) Yeah. And then the time zone is nice because you're kind of straddling both sides of the time zone, East Coast and West Coast, which is pretty nice. And then it's just an up-and-coming tech community. It's this cool, next, undiscovered tech community. And all the big giants are moving here, which is sort of good and bad. Right? I mean, you know, we're gonna have some of the same problems any big city has eventually. But it's also like, you know, you can sort of have, to some degree, an unfair advantage if you're a well-funded Silicon Valley startup here in Austin. Whereas, you know, in the Bay Area, there's 10,000 others just like you.

(Joel Beasley at 00:46:45) Yeah. And your money can go farther. You get a different type of feel. You get talent.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:46:50) Quality of life is just better. I mean, it's different. I mean, I love the Bay Area. Don't get me wrong. I still spend a lot of time there. I have a lot of friends there. You know, it's a very special and unique place. But Austin's really cool.

(Joel Beasley at 00:47:05) Yeah. So is Boulder. I was out in Boulder.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:47:07) That was one of the places on our list. Portland, Boulder, Austin. Actually, Nashville's pretty cool too.

(Joel Beasley at 00:47:15) I was there last week.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:47:16) Yeah, I was feeling like it was a little too far and had some other things that weren't—you know, didn't sort of check my list. Boulder was the same kind of thing. It was a little too insular, meaning like the community was a little too small, not in a bad way. That's actually a positive for most people. But it was also sort of hard to get in and out, and so I was worried a little bit about that—travel and otherwise.

(Joel Beasley at 00:47:37) Yeah. But Austin was just right.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:47:40) Austin was just right. I don't know. A lot of other people are doing it, so I don't know if it's the right choice or what, but we'll see in a few years. It's awesome. I love it so far.

(Joel Beasley at 00:47:47) Well, the best thing about it is you make a decision.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:47:50) That's right.

(Joel Beasley at 00:47:51) And then if you need to, you just make another decision.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:47:53) That's exactly right. Exactly.

(Joel Beasley at 00:47:55) Right?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:47:56) Exactly right.

(Joel Beasley at 00:47:56) Well, Jeff, dude, we made a podcast.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:47:59) I know. It's amazing.

(Joel Beasley at 00:47:59) This is fantastic. Like a baby. Yeah. I know. And we did it. Is there anything else? Not like a podcast. It's not. Yeah, I was like—

(Jeff Haynie at 00:48:06) Our wives would not care about that statement, so I apologize.

(Joel Beasley at 00:48:10) It's okay. Internally, I was like, let's roll with it because you've been a fun person to hang out with.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:48:15) Exactly. No. Yeah. It's been really fun. I really appreciate it, and you've asked great questions.

(Joel Beasley at 00:48:20) Well, wish you this again. Yeah. For sure. Real quick before we go, since we're still recording this whole time, people want to find out more about Pinpoint. How do they do that?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:48:28) Pinpoint.com. It's spelled pinpoint.com. So it's pretty easy. You can go to Pinpoint, reach out to me. I'm happy to talk to anybody that wants to talk directly. I'm a pretty open person. So [email protected], and yeah. Love to help anybody out there, independent of Pinpoint.

(Joel Beasley at 00:48:45) Are you on LinkedIn or Twitter more?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:48:49) You know, I was heavy, heavy Twitter for a very long time. I've tried to get out of Twitter. I'm still on Twitter. J Haynie, J-H-A-Y-N-I-E. I just—I've cut my usage down to once a quarter, really. I consume it maybe twice a week now, and I try not to write too much. That was not the case two years ago. LinkedIn, of course, I'm still on, like everybody in the world's on LinkedIn, but LinkedIn's become a little bit too spammy for me. But yeah. And Medium, I love Medium, but again, I think there's some challenges there with their business model, and so it's—you know, it's not as fun as it was two years ago.

(Joel Beasley at 00:49:27) And we have a large audience, technical talent, scaling from individual contributor, lots of lead engineers, lots of CTOs, all the way up and through the stack, VPs, directors, all of that. The most ideal type of person—what type of culture does Pinpoint have, and who's the type of person that you're currently looking to attract?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:49:48) Well, on the customer side, certainly, it would be lead engineering leadership at any level. Right? We want to have conversations with people, again, independent of—I'm an entrepreneur first and technologist. At the end of the day, I just want to talk to great people about what they're doing, and we're willing to talk to really anybody independent of pitching the product or selling them anything. So if there's anybody who would like to reach out, I'd love to talk to you about that. And then certainly, we're also really interested in trying to find ways to improve engineering individual engineers' lives as well. I mean, that's not been a big focus yet to date, but in our vision, Nolan and I have a very big vision around that. We are obviously engineers ourselves, and engineers don't care—in my opinion, engineers just don't care about analytics. What they care about are, like, how do we get better outcomes? How do you help me work? How do I get away from the ceremonial crap that doesn't help me write better code? And that's—we have big ambitions. We think once we get sort of one part of the piece working, we're gonna really focus a lot on that. And we feel like we have a good point of view and a background on how to help engineers.

(Joel Beasley at 00:50:50) Yeah. He alluded to that a little bit because I instantly picked up on it in our call. With Nolan, I said, "Dude, so if you gamify the system, that means that you have to become a better engineer. So where's the content that tells you what you can actually do to be better?" That was the natural next step. It's like, how do you help these people actually get the better outcomes?

(Jeff Haynie at 00:51:12) Yeah. And I think there's actually ways to meet developers where they're at and in the tools that they're at. You know, developers might be in Visual Studio Code or a JetBrains-type IDE. Right? They're not gonna necessarily be in a dashboard. They're gonna be in a Slack channel or whatever. And so we've got really great vision and ambition around what we want to do there.

(Joel Beasley at 00:51:29) I'm pumped up, man. I'm excited. The future is bright for Pinpoint. I'm so grateful that you took the time out of your day to come hang out and talk about technology, learn about how you fell in love with it, the big problem that you're solving. That's probably the biggest problem that I've come across this year. I'd say of all the products and all the services, this is the one—and I'm biased because it's close to me. But being able to articulate what's going on in engineering is just—it's amazing that you guys are doing this, and I'm super grateful that you're spending your time on these problems.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:51:59) Well, thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah. I appreciate it. And we always love feedback. So, awesome. Thank you so much.

(Joel Beasley at 00:52:04) And then we're headed off to Sweden in the next week or two to do some talks out there. We apparently—Sweden's got a huge booming tech community.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:52:12) Are you going to Malmö? Where are you going?

(Joel Beasley at 00:52:14) Yeah.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:52:15) I love Malmö. We had a big—we had a really big—Appcelerator had a really big Swedish community in Malmö and other areas as well. So I got to go there a few times. It's a really awesome place.

(Joel Beasley at 00:52:21) Yeah.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:52:21) It's really nice. Yeah. It's really fun.

(Joel Beasley at 00:52:22) It'll be our first time, so I'm excited.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:52:24) Oh, man. It's really nice. Yeah. It's really fun.

(Joel Beasley at 00:52:26) And then when we get back from that, I think we've got some stuff in Georgia and then back to Tennessee. But then I'll let you know because I want to come out and see Austin, meet all the people that are there. And then we always, when we visit the companies, we do little videos and stuff. That way, it'll just get you more exposure and things. However we can help. That's awesome.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:52:45) All right. Thanks, Joel, man. It's been great.

(Joel Beasley at 00:52:47) Yep. Have a great day, man.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:52:48) Talk soon.

(Joel Beasley at 00:52:49) Talk soon.

(Jeff Haynie at 00:52:49) See you. See you. Bye.

(Joel Beasley at 00:52:56) Thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to help, please take a moment right now to open up the iTunes app and leave a review of the podcast. If you take a screenshot of the review and text it or email it to a friend who needs to listen to the podcast and then CC me, [email protected]—if you CC me on the email, I'll send you a copy of the Modern CTO book or give you a shout out on the podcast, whichever you prefer.